Danielle’s comments are in red. Mine are preceded by **** and enclosed in parenthesis ****(…….). We begin with the police report to Brian Tumlin.
Tape #1 and #2 consolidated: bryan-tumlin-police-report
Christian: It would be good to talk to you because you are aware of
everything. This is not a good situation to be in especially when so many
things are out of place and policies have been broken. A lot of lying is
involved and then you have an agent on the stand who is saying there was
no pickup order and you have a social worker saying there was.
(He was aware of our entire case, and the court proceedings because we
was the security for Judge Walker in our court proceedings. He just so
happens to be the investigator that we were given when we asked to file a
Officer: Well, we are not involved in any of that. I don’t do anything until I
have the paperwork in my hand and that’s it.
Christian: Right on.
Officer: We are tied by so many laws and by pickup orders and arrest
orders and things like that. Sometimes some people might try to do it
without by not actually having it with them but I won’t do it unless I
actually got the papers.
(No one is supposed to do anything without pick up orders, warrants,
Christian: Here is the thing. We were at the hospital. How can there be any
child endangerment when you are at the hospital? There was no duress.
Danielle: Yeah, my medical records actually show that he was happy,
healthy, not crying.
(Danielle’s medical records as well as the baby’s medical records which
say the same things show a perfectly healthy baby and happy baby, not in
distress and feeding properly on his mother. Nurses’ notes say “infant
bonding appropriately with mother”, “no distress”, “infant laying on
mother’s chest”, “infant breastfeeding” “mother breastfeeding
appropriately”. Never did medical records say otherwise UNTIL he was
taken. Directly after he was taken and stuck in a nursery in a crib alone. It
then started saying “regurgitation amount, LARGE” “crying” “on back,
in crib”, “crying” “fed donor milk” (Danielle pumped every 2 hours on
the dot, about 1 ounce of colostrum was pumped for the baby every 2
hours. The nurses said it was A LOT for him, so they would store what he
would not eat, until the next time. Medical records show they fed him
“DONOR BREASTMILK”….Why??? NO reason. DRUG TESTS FOR
MOTHER AND BABY WERE NEGATIVE. MOTHER AND BABY WERE
VERY HEALTHY the entire pregnancy.)
Christian: Once he was taken he was crying and in duress, but that is a
different situation. Why we are here today is because I am going to tell
you that two weeks ago we went to the FBI. We told the FBI about
everything that is going on. We told them about the sexual assault that
took place. Now we didn’t think anything of it to come here and report it
yet because we are just under so much duress and stress, you know what I
mean? Like we are dealing with so much already, we are over here and
going there and trying to get so much done, trying to get a lawyer, but it
clicked in our minds we need to file a report here, too. And I’m gonna have
her to tell you to start it off because it happened to her. I was there. I can
be a witness to it and attest to it. I didn’t…
Danielle: Here is how everything began, by the way.
Christian: Yeah, here is how everything began. I called 911 at 6:30, 6:29 is
what my cell phone says, and I asked for an ambulance to come and I told
about our situation, that my wife was bleeding…
Danielle: But I was in labor
Christian: Yeah, and so we asked for assistance. Fifteen, twenty minutes
later a security official from the state park showed up and I guess he was
assessing the situation. Then all of a sudden about six more people showed
up, civilians if you will. I didn’t think anything of it at the time because it
was just a stressful event. Plus, I didn’t know who was who yet, because
we had just called 911 so I didn’t know who was who yet.
Danielle: Yeah, because we called 911 and we didn’t know if they were
right there or if there were other people…
Christian: I did recognize one, and that was Tammy Power’s niece stating
that she was a nurse…
Danielle: Amber Smith
Christian: Amber Smith, and then there were…Tammy Power also made it
Officer: Is Amber…I’m sorry to interrupt you sometimes…is Amber going
to say she was the nurse?
Christian and Danielle: There was a few of them who claimed to be a
Officer: But she did claim to be a nurse?
Christian: Yes, she claimed to be a nurse, yeah.
Christian: And then there were two other individuals who were said to be
civilians. They told me that night because I asked them, I said, “Well, how
did you all even hear about this?” They said they were at the restaurant
and that they overheard it, and then they came down. That’s all that was
told to me that night. But then on the stand, Tammy said that she was
riding down the mountain and saw them, and then somehow they found
each other that way, and then came into our spot or our area which is
behind closed gates and off into the woods. So she brought other people in
to where we were that were not emergency employees. They were just
some strangers, if you will, so the next part I’ll allow her to state.
Danielle: So, when people got there I was in a lot of pain. I was in pretty
much active, active labor at this point, which is why we called 911
because I was bleeding, my water hadn’t broken yet, and all I remember is
being in so much pain. Before they got there I was holding onto him,
standing up walking back and forth trying to breath and everything. I
couldn’t stand up on my own and all of a sudden when they got there
Tammy Power who is the superintendent of the park…she kinda pushed
him aside and held onto me and she was saying, “We’re family now. We
are friends. Hold onto me.”
Christian: Her and this other female nurse, not her niece, but there was a
female nurse with short white hair…
Christian: Blondish white hair…it was dark. It was at night, so…and she
was kind of heavier set.
Danielle: And we don’t know her name.
Christian: We don’t know her name.
Danielle: But that’s the woman we are complaining about right now so we
are trying to figure this all out.
Christian: Yeah, and the male nurse that was there, he was sitting on the
tarp that we had and he had his little kit. He was prepared with a little
medical kit that he had opened up. I don’t remember at the time what he
was doing but he was there at this time. I’m just trying to give you a
picture of what…
Danielle: And he was talking to you while…
Christian: He was talking to me and he was keeping my attention while
they were dealing with her over there, and I was right here dealing with
Officer: So, the girl that you are talking about with short blond hair, was
she the one you are talking about who did something she wasn’t supposed
Danielle: uh huh…
Officer: What happened with her?
Danielle: So, I remember Tammy was holding me up because I couldn’t…I
was having a hard time standing because I was having the pain, I was
bleeding, I was in so much pain I didn’t want anyone touching me. This
nurse, who supposedly is a nurse, I remember her saying that she used to
be an emergency room nurse…
Christian: So did the gentleman on the ground. He said that as well.
Danielle: And she said, “Honey, I need to check. I need to go in there and I
need to check.” And I said, “No! I want to wait until the ambulance gets
here”, because I didn’t know who she was. I didn’t…I’m bleeding, I’m in
labor, I don’t want anyone’s hands just going up in there in the dark when I
don’t even know who she is. So, I remember saying over and over and
over, “No! Do not touch me!” and I was like screaming out in pain, “Do
not touch me!” So I’m standing up holding onto this woman, Tammy, and
all I remember is this nurse, her saying (down here) opening my leg up
and trying to get me, forcing my leg open and all of a sudden I felt her
hand go up in there and I was bleeding. And I remember yelling, “No!
Stop touching me!” And I remember moving my leg, and she’s like,
“Honey, I need to check. We need to know if the baby is okay. If I don’t go
in there the baby might not be okay.” She she ended up going in there. I
kept saying, “No, no, no!” She ended up saying something to everybody
else, saying that it seemed like I was 3 centimeters dilated and breech,
which ended up being completely false.
Christian: Both was wrong.
Danielle: I was 9 centimeters right after that. I was told that I was 9
centimeters and I was not breech.
Christian: 30 minutes later at the hospital.
Danielle: Yeah, so she had no idea what she was doing.
Officer: And obviously I am going to have to ask some personal questions.
Danielle: Yeah, that’s fine.
Christian: No problem.
Officer: Do you remember how much of her hand that she put into you?
Danielle: It felt like a good amount…like…
Christian: Like half-finger tip or all fingers or what? How far is the cervix
if you will? That can say it to you.
Danielle: I mean it felt like her whole hand was in there. I mean…
Officer: Oh good.
Danielle: It wasn’t fingers. It was a hand.
Christian: Well, she went up in there.
Officer: Did she have any kind of…
Danielle: She had gloves on. I know that.
Officer: No other kind of equipment? No other bandages? Nothing, just
Danielle: No. That man did.
Christian: Nor was there any type of identifications.
Danielle: She was wearing just a regular t-shirt. I remember the t-shirt said
something but I don’t remember what. She was just wearing regular
clothes. She said she used to be an emergency room nurse.
Christian: She should KNOW the laws whenever a woman is
hemorrhaging and pregnant that is a big no-no to stick your hand and/or
(Danielle was not necessarily hemorrhaging, by the definition of
hemorrhaging, but there was some blood and that’s why the ambulance
****(Yes, I know that from my EMT training, but neither the officers of
the court nor the general public would have any understanding of the
difference. For those who want to know, take a half a cup of food colored
water and throw it on a sheet to see how much a small amount of blood
covers. And for those who don’t know, bleeding is a sign of potential
dangers to the mother and for this reason home births are contraindicated
when this presents.)
Danielle: You cannot do that unless you are in the proper environment, the
proper place, and have the proper credentials to do that so she’s not even
an OB/GYN nurse.
Officer: Does Tammy know her?
Danielle: She should.
Officer: She came up with Tammy?
Christian: Yeah she did. This…
Danielle: There is a lot of suspicious things with this Tammy woman.
People think we’re nuts because they keep saying, “You guys think there is
a conspiracy going on. Well…
Christian: Kinda is.
Danielle: There is. (chuckles)
Officer: Describe to me what she looked like other than the short blond
hair. How old was she?
Christian: Probably in her early 50’s, somewhere in the 50’s. So was the
gentleman, the guy who was sitting down. He had white short hair.
Danielle: I believe she was my height because I remember standing up.
She was about my height. She was heavy-set.
Officer: How tall are you?
Danielle: five, three and a half.
Officer: About how much do you think she weighs?
Christian: She was heavier than yous probably. How much do you weigh
Danielle: Probably it’s 130, she…
Officer: If I asked my wife that I would get cracked right in the head.
(laughter) I know better than that.
Danielle: I’m not good with figuring out weights. She was about my height
and she was probably like heavier set, so I don’t really know how to
Christian: She was probably about 150 or 160
Danielle: Oh, more than that.
Officer: It don’t have to be exact. If I could just uh…a good description of
Christian: She was plump looking.
Danielle: And it’s hard for me because I was in so much pain that I was
just focused on trying to breathe and, uh…so it’s hard to know exactly what
she looks like because
Officer: Oh I know. You are in the middle of childbirth and you’re not
paying attention to her, color of hair, color of…
Danielle: Right. I just remember her hair being short.
Officer: Where was this at? I think I remember you talking about it the
other day. Was it down close to that pavilion?
Christian: So, yeah, whenever you pull into the park you had the lake over
here with the little thing you jump off of and the little place where the
little man stand or whatever you want to call it with the gates, where the
gates that go like this…so if you go in, if you take a left at the pavilion is
up top here? We were over here in the woods.
Officer: Okay. So you were all kind of behind the pavilion…
Christian: Yeah, it was a ways away. It was probably over in the woods.
There was actually a little stream where it used to go right there, but it’s
not there anymore. We were over right there next to that little stream.
Officer: Did you have to…and again, I hate to have to ask this, notice her
eye color or any distinguishing marks, any tattoos?
Danielle: It was dark. That’s the problem. I really don’t remember because
it was dark, and can you remember anything else?
Christian: That was all I remember.
Danielle: This is the problem, because you know…I wish I remember what
her shirt looked like.
Christian: In these moments you don’t really remember too many things.
Officer: What all did she say to you other than, “Honey, I need to get in
there or to check in there? When she walked up, what did she say? Did she
introduce herself as a nurse, EMT, paramedic,
****(This is standard protocol, I will just insert here and all emergency
and safety personnel know this.)
Danielle: She didn’t introduce herself at all until I was being held up by
Tammy, and Tammy said, “We have these wonderful people here. They are
nurses. Um…she had her niece, Amber, with her, and I just remember this
woman being very frantic and her saying, “Honey, we need to check
Christian: There was a lot of blood and it was chunky.
(There wasn’t “a lot of blood” per say….but to Christian it was. It is okay,
he was concerned.)
****(Natural reaction for a loving husband.)
Danielle: I think I remember saying, “Well, who are you?” and she said, “I
used to be an emergency room nurse.” So I don’t know her name. She
didn’t say it. She said she used to be an emergency room nurse.
Christian: Tammy should know these people, she was like they know…
Officer: Was she wearing…I remember you said you couldn’t remember
the shirt…was there anything that could identify her as a park employee
anything like that.
Officer: Did she say anything else after she did what she did?
Danielle: All she said was I seem to be 3 centimeters dilated and
breech…which just 30 minutes later when I went to the hospital I was 9
Christian: And at this point they were walking her. It was Tammy on one
side, I believe it was the left-hand side, this woman that we speak of was
on the right-hand side and they are carrying my wife over to the state park
truck to then give her a ride over to the ambulance. I rode in the back of
the truck as they rode in the front with her. As we were riding to the
ambulance I then noticed, I’m sitting like this looking out the back of the
truck, I then noticed another vehicle pulling behind us-an older couple in a
white car, then as we were pulling around the pavilion I see two more
vehicles filled with people, and it was just a Sunday night and there is
Officer: You said you called 911 at 6:29?
Christian: 6:29. And I’ve gone to every single county, called every single
county and they cannot find my police call, my 911 call anywhere. They
can only find a call from Cheaha State Park where 15 minutes later, after
my call, someone had called 911 from the state park.
Danielle: But he …
Officer: I’ll check with ours. I’m assuming you called from a cell phone?
Officer: Those towers hit, they might (unintelligible) tower to ———-.
We had one, one time, —————I’ll check with ours because if it was
our ambulance that got sent of here they had to be…
Christian: It was Cleburne, but I’ve called. I called Cleburne and the only
thing they have on record..they don’t even have me on record calling but I
could show you where I called.
Officer: Well, obviously you did. You got an ambulance there.
Officer: I will check and see what I can find on that record but it may be
that it hit a different county.
Danielle: Yeah. I know we called Cleburne, Clay, Talladega and Calhoun.
Officer: Okay. Was the lady still there when the ambulance got on scene?
Danielle: Yes. She actually was in the truck with me. I remember her and
Tammy brought me to the state park truck and she got in the truck with
Christian: I took a screenshot just so you can see it. Verified.
(Christian then shows the officer the 911 call in the phone. This is a NEW
phone since the phone we had at that time, but luckily he had
screenshotted the 911 call in the original phone and saved it in google
drive, because we realized there may be problems like this.
****(Foiled again. God is helping you get past their conspiratorial plans.
I had this happen to me before but not in the same way. I once had a
sheriff tell me to get out of town by sundown and I had no clue what I
would do, I was terrified, and I only knew in the morning to call my one
friend, Will Hastings, a world class attorney. He told me that in about an
hour there just “happened” to be a major assemblage of child protection
workers, educators, philanthropists, and lots of media at a certain
location. I drove my bus, parked outside, and sat surreptitiously in the
crowd wondering what I could ever do to get the attention of the media.
God told me to keep keep quiet and hold on. Right at the end of this
meeting which was for the purpose of discussing how the homeless were
dealt with compassionately and with professionalism in the Santa Barbara
area, I heard the speaker say something like, “bottom line if a mother with
two children is found outside a shelter there isn’t any cop going to arrest
her or take her children for that”. God didn’t have to say anymore to me.
My hand shot up and I stood and said, “I am a mother with two children
who live in a school bus and I stand here to tell you that last night about 1
AM a sheriff’s deputy ordered me to take my kids and leave town by
Sundown. Boom! Had front page coverage and stole the story they thought
they came to cover. One of many stories of mine and you will have the
same thing happen to you, I promise. God really does see things from
outside the picture. We can’t.)
Officer: Oh, I believe it.
Christian: I just want you to know that we had verification.
Officer: Okay. Did she ever have a conversation with you and the people
in the ambulance?
Christian: Notice how it is 8 minutes and 9 seconds long, too. I don’t know
if that matters, but…
Officer: I’ll pull it up. I’ll write it down.
Danielle: Uh, so did she have a conversation with the ambulance people?
Officer: Did she ever say anything to them about she felt like you were 3
centimeters and breech?
Danielle: No, Amber Smith, the other nurse did. I remember Amber Smith
telling them that this other person believe I was 3 centimeters and breech,
and then they said what hospital are we going to and Amber Smith told the
ambulance RMC. That’s all I remember there. Then when I got to the
ambulance they kind of took over, um, but, I mean I’m sorry. I’m not
giving you very good details.
Officer: Nah, don’t worry. I think you were birthing a child.
Christian: Did the ambulance service ever ask you where you all wanted to
go? They never asked.
Danielle: They, they, no, no, no. They didn’t ask us. They only listened to
what Amber Smith said, and I remember. I was on the stretcher. They put
me in the ambulance, and I was looking out of the back of the ambulance,
and Amber was standing right at the back of the truck on the ground and
they asked her, “Do we know where we are going?” And Amber said,
Christian: Oh, and Tammy Power was trying to ride in the ambulance with
her and I said, “Oh no, no, no, no.” I said I’m riding in the ambulance with
Danielle: Yes. Tammy was trying to go in front in the ambulance and
rather than him.
Christian: And you’ve heard the rest of that where she busted in at the
hospital afterwards, and we have found out that those doors stay locked at
night. Somebody, a nurse or something has to let people in the hospital in
that area at nighttime. The doors have to be unlocked by another nurse.
Officer: I would so think so. It has been locked when I have been up there.
Officer: Spell your first name.
Officer: It’s HOLM.
Officer: I know you all didn’t want to answer this question on the stand the
other day. It’s personal, but for my report do you have an address?
Danielle: We have a…can we give you a P.O. Box?
Officer: I can’t tell you not to. I got to put something on here.
Danielle: All right. P.O. Box 438. It’s in Wedowee. The think with our
address is that we are actually…
Christian:Well, we don’t know who we can trust.
Officer: That’s why I asking. When is your birthday?
Officer: That’s my birthday.
Officer: Yes. Way before 1984. (laughter)
Christian: This December 12?
Danielle: No, January.
Officer: She was, no I was, no I’m not gonna even tell you how old I am
(laughter). You said you was 5’3”? About 130. What color of eyes?
Danielle: Yeah. Brown.
Christian: Light Brown
Danielle: I like meeting people with my birthday. It’s a good birthday to
Officer: Do you know your driver’s license number?
Danielle: No, but he has it. The driver’s license number that people
couldn’t figure out that I’m not Daniella Ruiz, a Mexican from Arizona. So
this whole thing started because they thought I was Daniella Ruiz, a
Mexican human and drug smuggler. So they took my baby.
Christian: And they felt that I was a Richard Christian Holm.
Officer: Is that the known —————-?
Christian: After we had already given them 3 forms of identification and
it’s impossible to have any type of child endangerment in the hospital. I
don’t see how that could even be.
Officer: My eyes are getting bad. I just have to —————— sometimes.
Have you got your driver’s license on you or anything, cause I’m going to
list you on here too? And I can get most of my information on that without
having to ask you 50 questions.
Officer: How tall are you?
Christian: About 6 foot.
Danielle: I wish I had more memory from that…
Officer: Well, she came up with Tammy. She’ll know who Tammy is.
Danielle: Tammy is not trustworthy, I’m afraid…
Christian: Well, there’s some possessiveness nature that was being shown
by Tammy in this situation. It seemed like it was being a friendship in the
beginning and then it became very possessive acting.
Officer: Uh…just in case I have forgotten something where I need to ask
later, do you have a contact number where I can get in touch?
Officer: What is the number.
Christian: I would also like to tell you too that we spoke to Kirby, our
lawyer. Our lawyer said not to do this, but I don’t understand why, because
anytime there is a sexual assault you should always…
Danielle: Yes, cause would that be considered a sexual assault when I’m
screaming, no! Don’t touch me and she’s…
Officer: That’s something the District Attorney’s office will have to
determine. Course they are gonna say that they were trying to help you
because you were having a baby. Now I’m also gonna tell
you———————and we are required to have our EMT license on us
24/7. When we were on the ambulance we actually had to wear a necklace,
you’ve probably seen them that have the ID.
Danielle: She didn’t have any of that.
Officer: Normally people are known by the Department of Public Health,
that they are licensed to show that they have a license. Course, they’re
gonna say that she was trying to help. You’re saying no, don’t do it. It’s
Danielle: I wanted to wait until the ambulance arrived.
Christian: Well, we called the ambulance, and see that this is the main
focus here that we dialed 911. Tammy brought these people in, you see?
Officer: And that’s a decision that on cases like this, the DA will make a
decision. It may be what happens is after I do my interviews and talk to
the people you might have to come testify in front of the grand jury if you
want to pursue charges, because that is one step in the process. It’s just the
way Alabama’s system is set up.
Officer: But what I’ll do is I’ll go talk to Tammy and try to find out who
this girl is, and I’ll interview Tammy and find out who she is, that she
came up with her she should know her. I mean I’m hoping she’s not
somebody she just pulled off the side of the road…
Christian: That is what she testified…on the road…I mean on the stand.
Officer: What did she say? I don’t remember.
Christian: Well,first of all they told me they were from the restaurant that
night, but then on the stand she said something about she was driving
down the road coming down to it and they just so happened to meet each
Danielle: I mean when you are driving down the road and you see a car
coming down and you just know they are in an emergency so you turn
around? That just doesn’t make sense.
Officer: Did Tammy ever say how she found out what was happening
Christian: I don’t think…I’m not real sure.
Danielle: Well, you called 911.
Christian: Well,I called 911 but he is asking specifically how did Tammy
find out. I called 911 and then on the 911 call I asked the dispatch if they
could call Tammy Power because we thought at this time that she was our
friend, and they told me that they couldn’t do that but that they would hang
up the phone and see if they could give a courtesy call or something. And
from what I understand, that might be it. I’m not real sure.
Officer: So, to make sure I’m straight. Amber was one of the ones that said
she was at the restaurant?
Officer: No, she was coming down the road and just happened to see all of
Christian: No, not Amber, Amber is Tammy’s niece. These other two
Officer: Did she say she was at the restaurant?
Christian: That night, those two individuals told me that they came from
Officer: And they just knew that something was happening?
Christian: Yeah, just heard about it up there. That’s what I was told right
then. Now there was another individual there too, with dark black hair, and
here is the funny part to me is that this individual I actually saw earlier
that day at a fire pit about 200 feet away from us, and he was cooking out
with his friend and were eating zucchini, and one of them actually
approached me and after Rob, which is somebody that works up there, told
me that these individuals were having a fire there as I was walking up to
come back to her. I was walking back down from the store and Tammy
and Rob were already over there with her. This was prior to the event, uh,
I think it was…
Danielle: It was the same day. I was in labor but not as much labor as I
Danielle: And Tammy and Rob gave these people permission to have a fire
200′ away from us and there was a fire ban…
Christian: A fire ban
Danielle: But she gave these people permission to have a fire and they
weren’t camping or anything, but they just had a fire and they were
cooking vegetables and steak.
Christian: It was a very weird situation.
Danielle: And Tammy and Rob, her worker, came over to our tent and
said, “Just so you know, we are giving these people over here permission
to have a fire and cook their food and we told them to leave the fire if you
want it, and leave you some vegetables and steak if you want it. You can
go over there and use their fire once they are done with it. But we already
had fire over here. They gave us permission, but anyways, one of those
guys later on he thinks is the same guy that came to the scene…
Christian: That night.
Danielle: …when I was in labor that night.
Christian: And I asked him, I said as they were walking us out to the truck
before the ambulance put you into the truck. I looked to him. I said,
“Didn’t I see you earlier eating with a friend of yours and I spoke to your
friend, and you were driving a red Dodge Ram? He said uhhh, and I said
well what kind of car did you come in? He said well I think were in a
…such and such now. Yeah, he couldn’t get his story straight. It was a very
Danielle: But that whole thing was weird because Tammy and Rob who
worked with her…I don’t know how to explain it, but they set them up
there which wasn’t even a real camp site, they set them up there to have
this fire during a fire ban in the park where no one else could have a fire
200 feet away from us while I was in labor and they were sitting there like
Christian: Tell him about the ones who were taking the pictures.
Danielle: Uh…well..sure…well I’m not a 100 percent sure about that
Danielle: So after that thing, so these guys were eating their vegetables
and kinda like watching us and they ended up leaving, and after they left
another woman came in the same spot and started taking pictures over
there and it was like she was taking pictures of us.
Officer: Was she using like a camera or a cell?
Christian: She was using a camera, she was there and she had children
with her too.
Danielle: Two little girls…
Christian: It could have been completely innocent the taking pictures of
the other children or it could have been something that just looked like
that, ya know?
Danielle: But…it was just all these weird things, but you asked who Rob
is? Rob works there…
Christian: Bookkeeping, bookkeeper.
Danielle: Bookkeeper or something like that.
Danielle: He befriended us and he actually…she would tell Rob to go
check on us all the time and he would come and try to find out information
on us and check on us.
(He told us he was a mole for Tammy, that she sent him to campers
sometimes to see if they are “crazy”.)
Christian: He actually befriended us more than anybody.
Officer: You decided he was checking on you all for a certain reason or…
Danielle: We said that he seemed like he cared but then as time progressed
after the baby was taken from us we were still staying at Cheaha State
Park in a camper before somebody bought from underneath us, which is a
whole other thing, but anyways…
Christian: well, he already heard about that…
Danielle: Rob came and he was kind of asking us questions…so what is
your plan? What are you gonna do?da..da..da..da..daw…and he said that
Tammy sometimes sends him out to meet with people camping, campers
and stuff, to see if they are crazy..to see…
Christian: To get information on them…
Danielle: To get information on them…It’s a really weird situation. We’ve
been trying to figure this out for two months now.
Christian: The key here is Tammy. Tammy has control of all of these
people over here up on the mountain and they are all family, I think. A lot
of them are family.
Officer: Amber is Tammy’s…
Officer: Is Amber the one that had the camper to start with?
Danielle: No. Stephanie Riggs
Danielle: And Stephanie Riggs works with Tammy as well.
Officer: That’s the one I remember coming up to the…hearing.
Danielle: They are very good friends and Stephanie…all right…so Tammy
has this control thing where she tells Stephanie to go do stuff and she tells
Rob to go do stuff. Stephanie and Rob kept “helping us” before the baby
was born and then right after the baby was taken. They seemed as though
they were helping us, they were driving us here and there, looking for
campers to buy, this, that, and every other thing. There were donations that
were made to us but they weren’t in our hands. They went to Tammy and
Stephanie. They used that donation money to buy us a camper…
Christian: They were setting us up for failure, though. The first camper
that we were staying at, the first shelter hearing that we had a lease for was
with Stephanie Riggs’ father, but then all of a sudden that fell through. The
second place that they took us to was this old abandoned like shack that
was not going to work for DHR (chuckles). There was no way possible. It
is as if they were trying to set us up in spots where we were going to fail.
Officer: So the first time wasn’t a camper, it was a house?
Christian: It was at camper of her fathers.
Danielle: It was not a camper but a FEMA trailer.
Christian: Yeah, a FEMA trailer. And then, while all that was going on the
church actually had donations. We’ve never been able to speak to the
church nor did they ever tell us about anything that we needed to speak to
a church or try and give thanks for everything that happened. And even
though she said that she did she lied. We didn’t find out about any of this.
They were holding all of it until weeks later.
Danielle: So anyway, Stephanie told us you have donation money from the
church, and she took us to see a camper that was for sale, and we went and
we were like this would be great. It would be perfect. So, she told us that
she was going to buy it with our donation money so we ended up doing
that under the impression that our donation money was being used to buy
this. They then had somebody pick up that camper with a truck, because
we don’t have a truck. We have a CRV that can’t pull it. They then brought
it to Cheaha State Park. Tammy Power then told us we could stay there for
a month under their VIP program to people who volunteer there, but she
didn’t tell us who to contact at that point. So then, we are in the camper
with all of our stuff in, and then Stephanie Riggs, after we moved in says,
“the camper needs to be in my husband’s name because we are buying it.”
Danielle: After we were already moved in the camper.
Christian: Yeah, you know, so we dealt with that as best as we could, but
let’s not get off into that. Let’s not get off so far that we…let’s stay with
Officer: Does Amber work there? Is she an employee of the park?
Christian: Yeah, she works in the restaurant. I saw her working the
restaurant a few times, yeah.
Danielle: She also says she is a nurse.
Officer: How old is she?
Danielle: Amber is probably around our age maybe a little older.
Christian: Probably late 30’s.
Officer: And you said her last name was Smith, right?
Danielle: I believe so, yeah.
Officer: Cause, I want to talk to her too.
Danielle: There is a whole lot of Smiths in this place.
Officer: Probably the most common last name around here. And you said
you thought she probably worked in the restaurant?
Christian: Were you born and raised here?
Officer: I was. Well, actually I was born in Georgia and we moved over
here when I was a kid. I felt like I’ve been raised here. It’s home.
Danielle: He’s from Georgia too.
Christian: That’s from where I’m from, Savannah, Georgia.
Officer: I was the other direction. I was up close to Carterville. I don’t
remember when we were, I mean I was a little bitty thing when we moved
to Alabama so I don’t really remember being in Georgia. All right, what I
will do…I will just basically explain the steps. I’m not having a
conversation with anybody about this other than the people that I have to
talk to about it. I know you heard me say that———-if he all finds out
about this it will be from you, not me. It’s not my place to commentate.
Christian: I was just letting you know…
Officer: I kinda letting you know what will happen and it will take some
time cause I have to do interviews. I want to talk to Tammy. I want to talk
to Amber. Do you all remember anybody else’s name that was there when
Danielle: Yeah, Freddie…
Christian: Freddie. Security Guard for Cheaha State Park.
Danielle: He is the only Freddie that works up there.
Christian: He is uh…a black individual.
Officer: Was he driving one of the vehicles? I’ve got something that says
law enforcement on the back of it, a Tahoe or Explorer?
Christian: Is he an officer? I think he’s just a security guard or maybe a
Danielle: I think he’s a security guard, not really sure.
Christian: I have seen him in a uniform, though. I don’t know if it’s a
security uniform or it’s a Ranger uniform. I think it might just be security.
They wear security uniforms too, don’t they? It was a green, a green and
Officer: Might a been a forest ranger with the national park. Oh I can find
out. If he works there, it shouldn’t be that hard and he was there when all
Danielle: He was the first one that came. After he called 911, all of a
sudden Freddie was there.
Christian: Yeah, he showed up first. In about ten minutes.
Danielle: Yeah. So when Freddie showed up and he was on the radio
talking to Tammy, right?
Christian: Yeah, he was talking to somebody and I heard Tammy in the
background saying “I want people down there now!”That’s what I heard
her say on the radio.
Officer: Okay. Was anybody else y’all remember that was there that we
Danielle: They were there that night so we can definitely say….Rob wasn’t
Christian: No, Rob wasn’t there.
Officer: When what happened actually happened so that we can…
Danielle: Yeah, so Freddie was there first, I know Amber Smith, Tammy
Power, and then the nurse that actually did what she did…
Christian: Yeah, we don’t know the name…
Danielle: We don’t know her name, and then there were two men there.
Christian: Yeah, and there was another nurse, a male, and there was the
black headed individual there…
Danielle: What was he doing there?
Christian: I don’t know who…
Danielle: Did he claim to be anything?
Christian: I don’t remember. And he is the one that I questioned about
being there earlier.
Officer: Was the unknown female with short blond hair the only one who
touched you other than the ambulance attendants?
Danielle: I mean…yeah…so Tammy was holding on…
Officer: I mean in an inappropriate…
Danielle: Yeah, I know. She was the only one.
Officer: All right. Anybody else that I could ask or talk to about this.
Danielle: That’s pretty much everybody that was there.
Officer: Okay, while I started talking I got off on a tangent. I’ll talk to
everybody. You all wait for me. I will present it to the District Attorney
and I will wait for the determination what happens. The first step is if they
feel like there is enough evidence to go forward it will probably go to a
grand jury where you would come testify as a victim, you would come
testify as a witness, and depending upon what kind of information I can
get from these other people they also may be subpoenaed to come to the
grand jury. After the grand jury, the grand jury will vote to decide whether
charges will be pressed or pursued or if there is decided ———-which is
to decide there isn’t enough evidence to go forward. I don’t make the
decision————-on this. I gather…my job is not to judge people. My job
is not to take sides, no to say that you did wrong…
Christian: You get all the facts….
Officer: My job is simply to find the information and to present that to the
people that make that decision and then I do what they tell me to do.
Officer: So like I say this is gonna be…it will take me several weeks to get
all this stuff done, especially this time of year. People are going to be hard
to track down. But I’m assuming that number that you give me, is that
going to be a good number?
Officer: When I get to the point where I may need to talk to you all again I
will call you, and if you don’t answer I will leave you a message or
whatever, and if you happen to think of anything else call back up here or
you can let Kirby know and he can get in touch with her, whatever you all
want to do but if you are like me you will be laying in bed at night and all
of a sudden you will think of something. Anything that can help me to do
what I need to do. Just call back up here and let me know, okay?
Danielle: Yeah. Now do you think…so because Kirby is confusing me…
Christian: I think Kirby might have been…now I’m not sure if Kirby is
trying to protect Tammy because he knows her or if he is trying to say this
might get back to the District Attorney because then cause this problem
because we’re…no…because he’s got to go give this to the District
Officer: Yeah, the District Attorney will definitely…
Christian: And the prosecutor that is combating us right now in court is
from the District Attorney. That’s correct? Schlenker…
Officer: No. He works for DHR. So you alls hearing is not a criminal
Christian: Well, Schlenker is from…I thought Schlenker was from…
Danielle: I thought it said Assistant U.S. Attorney…
Officer: I’m not sure who he works for. I know he’s never prosecuted any
criminal case. My understanding was, he was…I mean I don’t know where
they get them from…but he is an attorney from DHR.
Christian: Well, I think his title is Assistant U.S. Attorney.
Officer: If that’s the case, he doesn’t work in our district, and I was under
the impression that they were separate, because the guy that prosecutes
most of our criminal cases hasn’t been involved up to now…so…out of the
county I don’t care who gets made mayor or who knows who cause with
the crime committed here again you know I hear the facts, I present them,
I’ll arrest whoever needs to be arrested.
Christian: Well, that’s good.
Officer: I arrested my police chief’s brother one time…
Danielle: (chuckle) Oh, man…so do you believe…just because….I’m the
kind of person that just…like our baby is on the line right now. It’s like the
most painful process in the world. I’m just trying to push through. I’m
trying to do everything that I possibly can, not only to get our baby back
but to show the injustice that’s been done to us in every which way
possible. The only way for things to stop in the future is to expose the
Officer: Oh, I have no problem with this…I do what everybody else does.
That’s our right, and it’s our responsibility.
Danielle: Right, and so I just want to make sure that I’m doing the right
Christian: She wants confirmation from you that a law was put in place for
both sides, the badge holder and the non-badge holder.
Officer: Oh absolutely! And that’s why I say that my place is not to take
sides or judge to do anything. I find the facts. I give it to the District
Attorney’s office, and they tell me what to do. As far as I’m concerned you
all have just as many rights as anybody else here,so you’re not going to
have to worry about me when you all leave throwing all this crap in the
trash can and saying I won’t do anything. So, I’m going to do my job.
Officer: Trying to think if there is anything else. If I need anything else I
will call you. Just be patient because it is going to be a time consuming
Christian: Right. We understand.
Officer: At this time of the year, but if you happen to think of anybody,
especially anybody else that was there that you can think of a name that I
can go talk to, and I will talk to the uh…I’m pretty good friends with most
of them that work here and I will see if anyone of them maybe knew this
girl too. Which I will find out who she…
Christian: You can ask them to about how many people were there that
night. They had to have seen them…
Officer: I’m going to.
Christian:The ambulance was right there and then everybody…
Officer: That’s why I was kind of wondering if she ever had conversation
with the paramedics. It sorta makes me think that if she was a nurse and
she was trying to do what she needed to do for you from a medical
standpoint, normally the first thing that I would do as an EMT is go
straight to the medics and say this is what I seen, this is what I done, to get
them up to where they need to be. They call the hospital on the way to the
hospital to tell them what’s going on.
****(he has this right, because this, by the way, is standard protocol
training for all medical personnel and the medically trained all know it.)
Christian: Would you be sticking your fingers, would you stick your
fingers in someone in this situation?
Danielle: Even if they said no while you were…
Christian: Even if they didn’t say no. I want to know what the law states as
far as what you have to do.
Officer: As far as from a medical standpoint, I don’t remember anything in
my training as an EMT…the only thing is that…basically a childbirth is a
natural thing. We were taught, and it’s been a long time since I went
through EMT because I’m old, but we still have to do the updating…we
were taught basically put the hand down when the head started to crown. It
was basically kind of to keep it gently on the head to keep the baby from
coming out too fast. If the baby was breech, get them to the hospital right
Danielle: And don’t put your hand down….
Christian: Okay, so what I am asking you though is like…hold on baby…if
you’re not on the job, if you are just in civilian mode and then you come
into a situation, what does the law state for your to do?
Officer: In Alabama we have what’s called a Good Samaritan Act and
there’s not really a clear cut–you can’t do this, you can’t do that. The way
that it is worded, and Kirby can explain it better than I can, but it is
basically that you don’t do anything beyond what a reasonable person
would do. You know, a reasonable person is kind of open to interpretation.
Christian: So what we understand is that we have another nurse that is
friends with us. She has stated that if there ever is any hemorrhaging that
is being done that it is actually against policy, I don’t know if it is policy or
whatever if may be, for nurses to even stick a finger up in there…
Danielle: Especially if you are not an OB/GYN…
Officer: See, that’s the thing is nurses, especially OB/GYN nurses get
different training than we do. Their training is for a hospital setting. Ours
is for in the field, and basically for a childbirth you keep the head from
coming out too fast or you get them to the hospital right now. That’s pretty
much our two options, because it’s totally different when you are in a
hospital setting where you can do more things.
Danielle: Well and he still at that point, around that time wasn’t born for
another 12 hours and his head was nowhere near coming out, and she…
Officer: And that’s just to try to get…we guys as EMT’s, it’s going to be
different. I would think an OB/GYN, I would like to think would know
more about delivering a baby than I would. I personally do not ever
remember any training during the emergency medical technician that says
Christian: Now, I’m going ask you this. If we call 911 for assistance, and
then they then call Tammy Power, if Tammy Power then brings other
people down into the situation after we called 911 is that acceptable?
Officer: That’s something you would have to ask somebody more higher
up the ladder than me. You all have heard the HIPAA stuff.
Christian: We also have the HIPAA violation at the hospital with Tammy
Officer: As far as up there when we have gotten 911 calls in the past, due
to the fact the cell phone may hit whatever county within 30 miles of here
and the terrain and the way the place is laid out, there are a lot of times
that our dispatch will notify somebody up there to go ahead and start
finding where it is to get us up in there…
Christian: Well, that’s okay if it’s an official …
Officer: I don’t know that…I wouldn’t think that they are authorized to give
out any medical information…
Christian: And/or bring civilians into or behind closed gates or to a spot
bring civilians with you, right?
Officer: Unless she just felt like that there was going to have to be a lot of
hands there to help carry you all out by hand, because there again that
would be something there that you would have to take up with…Kirby is
probably going to be able to answer that better than I could. I keep calling
Kirby just cause I know him…
Christian: Okay. That’s what I call him. I say Kirby too, yeah.
Officer: But as soon as I get everything that I need I will give you all a call
as to what the next step is and what I said if you happen to think of
anything…please call. And I hope you all get your all’s situation straight.
Danielle: Okay. And just so you know, we weren’t sure where to go and
we’ve been communicating with Tyler Murphy. I’m not sure you know
Officer: Yeah, I know him.
Danielle: He’s been actually like dropping off food when we’re protesting
and stuff, and he’s supportive. And so, I contacted him as I asked him who
I should file a report with and he sent me to Ross over at Heflin PD, but I
don’t know. So we just went there but then Ross told us to come here.
Officer: Yeah, so normally I would ask you which part of the park,
because there are parts of it that is in Clay County. We worked, I hate to
say it, we worked a murder up there last year. It was about 10 feet inside
of Clay County so it does get confusing. But from what I understand
everything that has been heard up there, you all were in Cleburne County.
I’m not sending you all somewhere else. I’ll do it.
Christian: I was wondering about that though, because we have other
people telling us that it’s Clay County, and so coming down from the
mountain, down to the lake you know, you can see the sign that says
leaving Cleburne, going into Clay county going down into the lake. So,
I’m wondering why isn’t that lake Clay County?
Officer: The way I understand it, the way the line runs, the lake is in
Cleburne County. You know in worst case scenario, instead of trying to
You all need to go here, you all need to go there…you could spend the next
six months trying to figure out whose area you are all in, I’m gonna do it
and if it turns out you all are in Clay county and they want to pitch a fit, I
will turn the thing over to them.
Christian: We totally agree. We were just trying to find out for sure as far
as the jurisdiction part, not just for this but for the entire process, because
we have been told over and over and over that we were in Clay County
and we were just trying to figure out why did we get pulled over into
Officer: My understanding is that that part of it is in Cleburne county. I’m
not sure exactly how it runs but we’ve had that discussion with Clay
County’s rescue squad. Whose county were we in? Whose got jurisdiction?
Lot a times people get…pardon my French…but get into a pissing contest.
If somebody needs help, I don’t care what county they are in. I’m going to
be concerned…about this little imaginary line.
Officer: But from what I understand, all the research that we have done the
lake is in Cleburne County.
Christian: The only reason we are trying to find out…we don’t…as far as
people helping one another…we are all about people helping one another,
but when there is some type of more of an organizational act behind it that
starts to come about then that’s when it starts to kind of get iffy.
Danielle: Because the whole DHR situation, in our records we found that
Clay County DHR was actually called and then it was transferred to
Cleburne County, and even the mayor we talked to…the mayor is like why
are you in this county? And we said, we don’t know.
Christian: Yeah, and he said why are you even in this county?
Danielle: And Tammy Power, once again everything always goes back to
her, before we had the baby, before I was even in labor when she was
befriending us, she said make sure if you call 911 that you want Cleburne
County called. She is like, call the police department or 911 out of
Cleburne County and tell 911 you want Cleburne. And we were like, okay.
Christian: But I never said that. I never told the 911 that. But if you
remember, that the niece is the one that said Cleburne, the niece of
Tammy. So, it’s like they…why did they…if they are not involved or if they
are not us, why were they pushing so bad for us to go to Cleburne?
Officer: Sometimes it is because of the response time. The ambulance for
certain parts of Cheaha, the ambulance for Clay County can get their
Danielle: Where would the ambulance usually come from?
Officer: Well, that’s what I’m talking about. For other parts of the park,
Cleburne County can get their quicker, so that’s one of them discussions
that has gone, believe me, I know for the last 25 years because on top of
Cheaha there is no way to get there quickly for anybody. But we timed it,
tried different areas, and found out that certain places Cleburne can get
there first, and in certain places Clay County can get there first. We have
had some bad wrecks where they just panicked and called everybody, and
you get fifteen ambulances and fire trucks up there.
Danielle: So, it’s weird that the ambulance driver said that they came from
Piedmont…and we said why are you coming from so far away? and he said
we don’t really know.
Officer: That wasn’t a Cleburne County ambulance, was it?
Christian: Well, they said Piedmont.
Officer: You remember what color the truck was?
Christian: Oh boy…
Officer: Ours are the normal ambulance color, white with orange stripe.
Piedmonts is kinda unique. It is blue, blue and white.
Danielle: Wasn’t it blue and white? Wasn’t it that ambulance that was
going back and forth? oh…
Christian: So, there was an ambulance that was already up there at the top
of the mountain that day, but it was an unmarked ambulance, and I don’t
think it was that one but I’m not real sure…
Danielle: But it was definitely…that one was blue and white.
Christian: It was definitely not an orange ambulance.
Officer: The one you were all transported in, do you remember what they
Danielle: Oh man…
Christian: darker color?
Officer: Was it like a golf shirt? Was it a solid button up shirt from top to
Christian: A golf…if I’m not mistaken now…
Officer: And they said they were from Piedmont?
Christian: Piedmont, and it was an older gentleman and he wears glasses.
Danielle: Which one are you talking about…
Christian: The one up front next to me. He had trident, or he had gum. I
don’t know if it was trident or not. He had gum right here because I asked
him if I could have a piece of gum, and he said yes, and I took it. I’m
gonna try and remember about him, though. All I know is that he was an
older gentleman and he wore glasses.
Officer: Do you remember what color the ambulances were? All the ones
in Cleburne county are the typical white with orange stripe.
Christian: I just remember asking him where did you all come from? And
he said Piedmont, and I said…Oh! And there was another thing too. As we
were going down the mountain he had to stop and look at his phone to
check and see which way to go as if he has never really been that way that
much and/or knew that route.
Officer: I’ve had to do that before sometimes.
Danielle: Didn’t you ask him what…like something about why did you
come all the way out that way? Cause they took a long time to get there…
Officer: And they made the statement they came from Piedmont?
Christian: Yeah. He did.
Danielle: And you said, why did you come from there and he made it
sound like they didn’t have any answers…
Christian: They didn’t really know. Yeah, they acted like they didn’t really
Danielle: And they said that when they get a call to come here, they just
Christian: They just go, so, uh, but yes.
Officer: I don’t know why Piedmont would be running because that’s a
long way from Piedmont.
Danielle: Do you see all the weird things that are going on?
Officer: Oh yeah. I’ve never known Piedmont to run out on to Cheaha
Mountain in 20 plus years. I’ve never seen that.
Danielle: And the ambulance guy that was in the back of the ambulance
with me, all that I remember about him was he seemed very, very nervous,
maybe because I was about to have a baby…
Officer: Yeah, we don’t like delivering babies. We want to get to the
Danielle: Right. So I completely understand that, but I remember being in
so much pain and then starting to feel very uncomfortable because I felt at
the time that he didn’t know what he was doing. That’s how I felt.
Officer: Did he have anybody else in the back with him?
Danielle: Just him.
Officer: Just them two on the ambulance? No fireman that showed up to..?
Danielle: Yeah. No. No.
Christian: Actually, someone else did show up…
Danielle: If they did, I wouldn’t have known that.
Christian: I don’t know if it was another Ranger or what, but he had a
black buzz cut.
Officer: Well, a lot of times fire fighters will first respond, and if its a…
Christian: Yeah, I think that’s what he was.
Officer: And they will sometimes ride in…and if you got a serious call they
will want more than one person in the back. That’s why I was
wondering…so he was the only
Christian: He was the only attendant.
Danielle: There was only one guy.
Christian: This guy came in as we were getting into the truck. He wasn’t
there with the ambulance. He was there before the ambulance…and I think
he was fire..
Danielle: I remember the guy in the back with me kept shaking…like
profusely and it was making me really nervous. I was in a lot of pain and
he went to put an IV in me and he couldn’t do it like three times. And I
was like yelling. I was yelling because I was in pain, and I was like can
you just get it done? (laughter)
Christian: Well, he was trying. He was probably just…
Officer: You all…you were transported to RMC’s emergency and then
moved over to the women’s…
Danielle: Yeah, to delivery.
Officer: I can find out through RMC who brought you all in.
Christian: Now, whenever I got the records from Cleburne, from the
mountaintop, from the mountain–whatever it is called up there, at the
place where you go get the records—mountain something…
Officer: The Mountain Center?
Christian: Mountain Center, yeah. They told me that they are the ones that
sent out the ambulance.
Officer: Okay, I will check with them and see. If it was one of our trucks,
the only reason that they would be coming from Piedmont that I can think
of is that they were on a transfer. We’ve only got two ambulances in the
Christian: Yeah, so if they were all busy…
Officer: Unless they just happened to have been up there doing a transfer
to a doctor’s office or to a dialysis clinic and the other truck was tied up,
but if that had been the case most of the time they would have told our
dispatch, hey. We are way out. You might want to send somebody that’s
closer, especially on a childbirth. Because there…there ain’t none of us
wants to deliver a baby in the back of an ambulance. We want to get to a
hospital. Guys, we’re not built for that. I helped with my little girl’s birth
and I don’t ever…I’m sorry, I don’t want to ever see it again.
But I will find out exactly what happened with all of that because that is
going to be part of this anyway. Because I want to talk with people on the
ambulance to see if they may have known this girl, if she supposedly was
a former OB/GYN or ER nurse. Most of the medics you know…
Danielle: She wasn’t. She said she was a former emergency room nurse.
Officer: That should make her even more recognizable because we are in
and out of the ER so much, but I’ll find out.
Officer: And like I said, I will call you all as soon as I get to the point
where I need to talk to you all anymore or you can think of anything else I
Danielle: And then is there anyway to find out why we can’t find his 911
Officer: I’ll check with our dispatch and see. If you get a 911 scene or
anywhere, it’s gonna be recorded.
Officer: I don’t know of any of them that don’t record.
Christian: We called all surrounding counties and nobody can find it.
Officer: It might be that if you weren’t working a “official investigation”,
they might but I don’t know when to tell you. I don’t know, but I will
check with ours. If our truck was sent, if Cleburne County was sent, our
dispatch had to be involved at some point so even if it went to another
county it would have been transferred to ours and it would tell me who
Officer: So, I’ll be…I’ll be able to get all of that too.
Christian: So when do you…as far as when you investigate this, when do
you tell anybody else about it? Your district attorney or anybody else?
Officer: When I get all the information that I think that I could possibly
Christian: So that would be like another two weeks, three weeks anyways?
Officer: If may be longer than that.
Christian: Okay well if that is the case I don’t understand why Kirby is
tripping out, cause…
Officer: Are you all going to be here on Tuesday? It won’t be here before
Christian: It just goes to show where Kirby is…
Danielle: I don’t even know why he would care anyway. If you really feel
like you are assaulted…
Christian: Yeah, why would anybody ever want you to hide an assault?
Officer: Like I said, I don’t know…
Christian: Well, Kirby was sent in to us by the judge. You know, and
maybe that’s just, maybe we need to start getting people of our own…
Christian: Too late now. Everything is already said and done now. Yeah,
but maybe everything will come to light, or maybe the judge can see
everything and make the right decision here. We ultimately are going to
keep going up.
Officer: If it was my child, I would be doing the same thing. My little girl
is absolutely my world and I would do whatever I had to do to protect her,
so I can sit and say I understand what you are going through. I don’t, but I
can imagine it’s awful.
Danielle: Yeah. It is.
Christian: It’s terrible.
Officer: But, I’ll get to work on this, and what I said when I get to a point
where I’ll need to talk to you all again I’ll call that number that you gave.
And if you don’t answer, I’ll just leave a message on it.
Officer: All right.
Danielle: Thank you.
Officer: Oh, You’re welcome.
Danielle: Do you have a number or something?
Officer: Let me just write you something. Now my handwriting’s terrible.
Can you read that number okay?
This begins Tape #3
****This is a copy/paste of my conversation with Danielle and Christian
Holm on Facebook Messenger after listening to Tape 3. It is basically my
summarization of what I was hearing and my questions regarding all of it.
Danielle told much of the early story through this question and answer
****Danielle and Christian, this is what I got from Tammy’s testimony:
She does not recall Danielle yelling No over and over at the “nurse”.
Holm’s answer: Tammy brought the “nurse” into the campsite with
her and Tammy took over holding Danielle up, as she went through
her contractions. Previous to this, Danielle was holding onto
Christian. When Tammy came into campsite with other individuals,
she took over holding her up and as Danielle said “no” to “nurse”
multiple times, she was right there telling Danielle, “It’s okay, we are
family now, we are here to help, she needs to check and make sure the
baby is okay, its okay, hold onto me as tight as you need to”.
****Tammy declares nurses went into your laboring room and asked if
Christian wanted to see her, denies telling the nurse that she was family to
Holms, Tammy states she informed nurse who she was and where she
worked at (this would prove interesting if the nurse on duty didn’t know
her already from her long term experience in the area).
I notice Tammy speaks with a detached emotionally flatline voice, a
monotone. Speaking without affect can be a pathological indicator of
mental illness, specifically schizophrenia. You, Christian and Danielle, on
the other hand both speak with normal emotional affectations.
Holms: As we were in the delivery room, once we got to the hospital
and they set us up, Danielle and Christian were signing paperwork
while trying to get ready to deliver their child. Danielle signed
paperwork stating she only wanted Christian in the delivery room
The delivery room nurse came in and said, “there is a Tammy Power
here from Cheaha State Park, she said she is family, do you want her
to come in here now?”
Christian said, “No, not at this time, could you just tell her when we
are ready after we deliver the baby, we can come out and tell her and
whoever else is here?” The nurse said, “that’s fine. Ill let her know”.
About 5 minutes later, Tammy walked into our room. At first, we did
not say anything because in the moment, Danielle was just trying to
breathe and stay focused, and Christian was trying to help her stay
focused. Tammy came right over, told Christian he could leave and get
something to eat, drink, etc…and Tammy stood by the head of
Danielle telling her “we are family now. I am here, whatever you
Danielle was not able to speak at that time, as contractions were very
intense and painful. After about 5 minutes, Christian pulled Tammy
aside, away from Danielle and quietly said to Tammy, “Tammy, this is
a sacred moment between my wife and I, and I am going to have to
ask you to leave. We can notify you after we have delivered our baby
and you and everyone else can see him once he is born”.
Tammy then, without saying a word, went to the other side of the
room, picked up her pocket book, did not say bye to Danielle and
walked out with a sigh and shaking her head.
Danielle had specific instructions that at the time of her birth all she
wanted was her husband. For months her “birth plan” was as
peaceful, and natural and serene as possible as it is truly a sacred
event between man and woman when bringing life into the world
together as one.
****Cheri Gay, a social worker at the hospital, who was she?
Holms: A social worker who works for the hospital. She came in to
speak with us after the birth of our baby. She asked us questions
about why we were traveling (missionaries), and where we had been
staying before traveling to the hospital. We talked to her about not
wanting social security number, birth certificate because we were not
yet naming him until most likely after leaving the hospital. She said
everything was fine, and she left the room. After an administrative
person came in asking about a birth certificate and we said we would
not be signing one, she did not know what to do and told us we needed
to sign one. We said, there was no law stating that we had to, and in
fact it was a voluntary program and that we would not be signing a
contract for our baby that day, especially as we wanted some time to
We then called Cheri Gay back in the room to re-clarify what we had
already spoken about to make sure these things were not going to turn
into “issues”. She had said also that she had spoken to Tammy
Power….in other words, Tammy Power had spoken to the hospital
social services about us AFTER Christian asking her to leave the
delivery room. (Later on we were told by DHR social worker Stacy
Jackson, that a “state park employee” called social services saying our
“tent smelled like marijuana” (ALL DRUGS TESTS HAVE BEEN
Cheri Gay according to medical records spoke with Stacy Jackson
and asked for her to come in and do an investigation on us. She spoke
with Stacy Jackson at 3pm on Tuesday October 11 and then Stacy
came in at 4pm to remove our child at 4:30pm before a court order
was even signed. Cheri Gay had spoken to CLAY county DHR on
October 10, 2016 and apparently had been trying to figure out how to
get someone in to investigate us right after birth. She spoke with
multiple DHR workers and then finally it landed with Stacy Jackson.
****Tammy declares the camper was not offered, only the money, yet the
money supposedly used to purchase the camper she knew would benefit
her employee. The employee’s father was supposedly selling it, but it
really wasn’t sold. It was a ruse. Tammy appears to have no awareness of
the fact that this is the camper, the one benefitting her employee’s father,
that she permitted the Holms to live in at the park, but that somehow there
was no offer ever involved with any of that. How can this be possible, this
cognitive disconnect? Tammy is slicker than snot. She says this knowing
you were thinking you were buying a camper and living in it at the park,
that you were not trying to buy the one you were buying. Is that
convoluted, or what? She speaks all of that with a straight face, too I bet.
Holms: After having our baby kidnapped from the hospital and after
being discharged, we stayed at Cheaha Lodge (a hotel) for about a
week. During that week, we were scurrying looking for a place (even
though DHR did not and does not have jurisdiction over us because
we do not LIVE in Alabama officially). But at that point we were in
the “comply or die” mindset. So, we were doing everything DHR was
asking out of fear and not knowing any better of DHR’s tactics at this
time. Cheaha staff, without us asking, insisted on helping and reached
out to us. They offered for us to stay at the Lodge until we found a
place while Danielle was recovering. We accepted. Tammy sent
Stefanie Riggs to us to “help” us and “drive us around” and look for
places (our car at this time was still in Montgomery). She also had
Rob Keith stick with us.
We were told by Tory, at Cheaha that SHE had found a camper for us
to buy if we were interested. We were told by Tammy and Stefanie
that funds were being raised and that donations were coming in, both
money and baby items. We were so grateful, so happy and so filled
with love because we saw people coming together to make change
happen and it filled us up with joy. BEFORE the shelter case hearing
on October 14, Stefanie took us to her biological father’s property
where he had a FEMA trailer he was renting out. It was furnished,
had all utilites and she said rent was paid for. We got a “lease
agreement” signed by him, and a rent receipt to show that we had the
shelter DHR was looking for. We showed proof of this at the court
hearing the next day. Stefanie also testified on the stand that we had
this shelter and it was paid for and we would be moving in ASAP.
Stefanie then called us that night, and let us know the trailer fell
through but that she could take us to look for other places over the
next couple of days. After driving around looking at a few places that
did not seem to fit the bill for DHR, we finally went to look at this
camper Tory had told us about. We thought it would work out
perfectly. Stefanie said she had been looking for a camper just like it.
She said at that time that we had about $600 in cash and a check she
thought for around $950 from a church who did a “love offering” for
us. Her and Tammy were holding onto our donations. We were taking
their word for it, on what had been raised by others.
While at this camper, we told Stefanie we were interested in the
camper but we needed to make sure with DHR FIRST before
spending donation money on a camper we didn’t even know was going
to be good enough. Stefanie said she could always buy it now to make
sure we had it and then she could take it out of the donation money
raised for us.
We then asked DHR if a camper would be okay, and they said as long
as there was running water, electricity it would be fine. Stacy Jackson
said, “I think that would be great for you guys”.
We told Stefanie that the camper would be fine with DHR and we
wanted to get it.
Stefanie told us it was on the way to Cheaha, that Tammy had
arranged a spot for us to be able to stay at to get the baby back, with
electricity and water running, next to the bathrooms, and that we
could stay there for 30 days in the VIP spot if we were to volunteer for
the park. Tammy then said, “welcome home, to your new camper!
Now, go bring our baby home!”….
We moved all of our baby stuff into the camper at that point, and
started making it “home”. We knew that DHR would be looking for
“stability” so, we knew we were going to need to show them proof of
ownership and that we had a home and that we could stay at the park
for at least a month and in the meantime would figure out the next
We asked Stefanie, who we were told bought the camper with our
donation money FOR US, if we could have the title to show DHR
proof that we had a solid shelter and we were going to start
volunteering as soon as we could. (At this point we still did not know
who we had to talk to, in order to get volunteering started, but we
were just getting settled into our new spot).
Stefanie then told us that her husband said the camper would have to
be in their names and we could live there for a little while but then
would have to move out because they would be living in it on the road.
Stefanie had then said at that point that SHE bought the camper. We
asked with what money because we still had not seen the supposed
donation money. She said, she bought it with THEIR money.
We had moved into the camper under the impression Stefanie got it
for us, not with HER money but with the money others donated in
order to help us get THIS camper. We had made arrangements, told
DHR we had the camper ready, everyone said, “it’s yours” and you
can “be here for a month”….and then after a day of sleeping in it, “it’s
not yours” and then Tammy told her employee Rob to tell us we
needed to move out by the end of the week the following week. The
VIP program (30 day volunteer program) was no longer available for
us. This all happened within a matter of one week.
Since Rob felt bad about the situation, he spoke with his family. His
family then contacted us. They donated a majority of the money for a
camper we ended up searching for online because we now had to
move out of this camper that Stefanie bought. Rob’s parents said it
was their tithe. Rob’s dad is a retired pastor. Also, we ended up finally
getting the donation money that employees kept asking us if we had
received after we asked Tammy for a meeting about it. We had a
meeting with Stefanie, Tammy, Rob and Hannah, another employee
there. Hannah’s father is a pastor and he donated the check for $950
dollars towards the camper we ended up getting. Both Hannah’s dad
and Rob’s dad, both pastors contributed to OUR camper which we
ended up finding AFTER we got kicked out of the camper Stefanie
bought without our knowledge.
Tammy was well aware of all of this, as she is the one who
orchestrated the entire thing, asking Stefanie to drive us around,
looking for places, and asking Rob to help out and asking Hannah if
her church could donate. Tammy lies on the standing multiple times
about this entire situation.
****Stephanie supposedly bought the camper from her dad, and wasn’t
this the one who just testified that she wanted to help you guys, even
babysit if you got the baby back? Do I have her mixed up with someone?
If not, she is the one who was sounded sweet as sugar on the witness stand
about how much she was still willing to help you if you got the baby back.
But here we have Tammy testifying that this friend bought your camper
out from under you that you were depending on to get the baby back with.
Holms: Both Tammy and Stefanie are good friends. Stefanie works
with Tammy side by side at Cheaha and Tammy brought Stefanie to
us at the very beginning BEFORE giving birth, BEFORE going into
labor, to “donate” baby items to us “just to be nice” because she had
just had a baby and wanted to. Tammy and Stefanie as well as Rob,
were all on the same team, “helping” offering food, rides, clothes,
baby items, donations to then FLIP at the perfect time, right when
DHR takes our baby and is looking for certain things. Right when we
would have something to show DHR, it would be sabotaged. Stefanie
testified for us at the shelter case hearing and 2 months later testified
against us, FOR NO REASON….We never changed. Only they did.
****Here is a statement I want to know more about from Tammy’s
“The camper that they were going to sell you was their old camper,
but you didn’t feel it was what you wanted, you had not seen it, you
wanted to see a camper, she took you to see another camper after that, and
a trailer after that. You didn’t want to stay in either of those two, then it is
my understanding that you purchased with the $900 and the $600…”
Is any of this true?
Holms: AFTER Stefanie bought the camper that we actually moved
into at Cheaha that we THOUGHT was purchased with OUR
donation money that we were told was FOR the camper, once we
realized Stefanie was not allowing us to have the camper or putting it
in our name to show DHR it was OURS and that she bought it with
her money even though we still did not have the donation money….(so
now no money, AND no camper AND DHR waiting for us), Tammy
then told us that Stefanie was offering to sell her OLD trailer that her
husband was currently using on the road for his jobs for $400.
Stefanie did NOT take us to see anything AFTER she bought this
camper out from under us because we no longer trusted her.
The same time Stefanie said it was her camper and not ours, was the
same time Tammy had told us to leave the park through her employee
Rob, so we left and never turned back and Rob’s family and Hannah’s
check of $950 from her church helped us buy the camper we now own
and live in. And we purchased THIS camper we currently own and
live in with Hannah’s donation of $950 AND Rob’s parents donation
because they felt bad for what Stefanie and Tammy had done to us.
Rob, saw them flip on us all of a sudden and did not understand it
****Do you have recordings of the meeting where Tammy is lying? This
apparently is a meeting with several other individuals regarding the
camper. This is a meeting where Stephanie had bought the camper out
from underneath you.
Holms: Yes, we have this recorded. And this was AFTER Stefanie had
told us that it was her camper and we could not have it…this was the
meeting where we finally were given our donation money AFTER we
realized that our donation money had never gone to the camper we
were living in at that time that we had just found out was not even
ours and we were going to have to move out so Stefanie and her
husband could use it.
****Tammy testified that there were donations of $900 and $600. You
have recordings of the truth?
Holms: This was the truth (actually $950 and $600)….we just were
never given the money until we were told AFTER moving into the
camper Stefanie bought that OUR donation money did not buy the
camper and that Stefanie bought it for herself and we were just
borrowing it. In other words, we were told for a couple of weeks that
there was donation money for us and it was all to be used for shelter
appropriate for DHR. We hate the thought of an apartment, so DHR
said a camper is fine. When the camper got pulled to Cheaha and set
up for us to live in it with a volunteer job to pay for our spot,
etc..etc..etc…we were told our donation money paid for it and that it
was OUR HOME…that we could show proof of OUR HOME to
DHR….until Stefanie refused to give us the title and said it was HER
HOME that we were borrowing temporarily. After that, we realized
we needed to find our donation money they were hanging onto so that
we could go get OUR HOME….since obviously we were not able to
trust anyone else to go get OUR HOME because they would then say
it was THEIR HOME.
So, then we had that meeting and Tammy gave us the donation money
she was so much wanting to hold onto for a couple of weeks for some
reason. We took that money PLUS money Rob’s parents offered and
bought a NEW HOME that we now live in which is officially OUR
****Tammy denies kicking you out, makes up a story about a contractor,
and appears very vindictive in refuting your version of the events that
transpired. A simple no would have sufficed but she never misses an
opportunity to castigate you, Christian.
Holm: She used her employee Rob Keith to come tell us that we
needed to leave by the end of the week, even though just a few days
prior, she told us that we could be there for at least 30 days and
volunteer. At the same meeting where she gave us the donation money
(AFTER realizing the camper was NOT OUR HOME), she finally
gave us the number for Tony Knight, the guy who we would be
helping and volunteering for. The SAME day she gave us that number
was the SAME day Christian called. Tony Knight said, “I thought for
sure you would’ve called me a long time ago. I was expecting your call
a few weeks ago”. Christian said, “I didn’t even know you existed
until today. I have been waiting on directions to know what to do
****She lies to your face easily about telling you to call the church. When
you called Tony Knight, did he seemed surprised to hear your side of
things or did he just appear to assume you were making it up (in other
words, believe Tammy’s side of the story)?
Holms: Tony Knight was very surprised that we did not know to call
him until that day. He was “expecting our call” to volunteer a few
weeks prior. We had no idea he was wanting us to volunteer before
this. Tammy only started telling us this the week prior but not giving
us any names, numbers or what or who to call or what to do, UNTIL
the meeting of the donation money and AFTER Stefanie had already
said the camper was HERS…and this was the SAME week Tammy
kicked us out via her employee Rob, who ended up helping us get a
NEW camper so we could leave there and be done with it.
****She states you were given funds that the church had given
(apparently when you left the campground). Is that true?
Holms: It’s all above. ^^^^^ The church had given funds a couple of
weeks prior but Tammy and Stefanie had held onto this money for
whatever reason, until AFTER Stefanie bought the camper we moved
into and then they gave us the donation money because employees
were asking if we had received their donation and we said no….so
Tammy finally gave it to us and then we were told we needed to leave
a couple of days later. Thankfully we found our own camper in that
amount of time, and we left the park.
****God Provides! Psalm 37:23 KJV The steps of a good man are
ordered by the Lord: and he delighteth in his way. Proverbs 24:16 The
godly may trip seven times, but they will get up again. But one disaster is
enough to overthrow the wicked.
Tammy is very smart. By stating she is not a parent she slides away from
having any personal opinion regarding your receiving donations. She has
one, but this is a clever way of taking the 5th. I think anyone hearing this
testimony gets it. This is exactly the same thing that Bill Clinton did when
he said, “it all depends upon what your definition of is, is.” She is not
fooling anyone, but on the transcripts it is technically or professional
Beginning Tape 4
****(To the reader: In these early tapes, I still hadn’t realized I should be
typing the court audios verbatim. I was having Facebook messenger
conversations with the Holms as I questioned them, and they then did their
best to answer. So the format is a little different here than what it becomes.
It is in the next tape, tape 5, that I seriously began to produce an accurate
record. The full realization and disillusion was getting to me and soon had
my complete attention. The Holms were continuously being traumatized
and I was also dazed from the sounds of the courtroom I listened to as I
typed every day. It grew worse from tape to tape. The climax of my
commitment to this cause came after my husband and I went to Alabama
to finally meet them, and then we experienced some of the worst with the
Holms as it happened. I am glad we were there to serve as living witnesses
to what continues to this day against everyone’s Constitutional rights and
Stephanie Riggs is the witness on the stand.
So, you met Ms. Riggs for one day and she brought baby stuff, then went
on vacation. She apparently arranged a camper to rent, the deal fell
through, she says she found one not in good shape, then found another
deal that was also unacceptable (to her) but it was better than the last bad
one you all had just seen. This became the camper.
She says the night after court the guy reneged on the deal. He called her
that night, she had the money, it was $300. (right here it sounds like
Tammy interrupting saying, “that is not what he told you, That is heresay.
Stephanie says okay. The interrupter states, “it just no longer is available.
Stephanie continues, it fell through.
****(My question is was this a court? I thought it was a court. Do they
allow people to help someone answer questions like that in court?)
Hamlin: But I think you testified it was your father-in-law?
Stephanie: It was my biological father. I am adopted.
Hamlin: You testified you hadn’t received any of the physical donations,
baby items, that you would pick them up as soon as they got the baby
back. There was an $800 camper that was to be purchased by the Holms.
Stephanie: At the time we went and looked at the camper there was only
$600, and so it wasn’t enough to buy the camper.
Hamlin: What happened to the camper?
Stephanie: I ended up calling my husband and discussed us using
Christmas money that we had saved to buy the camper.
****(With friends like this you don’t need enemies.)
Hamlin: Do you know if the Holms ever bought a camper with the
Stephanie: I heard
Hamlin: But you don’t know. As a result of you buying the camper
there ……………………….a change?
Stephanie: I did.
Hamlin: Tell what happened.
Stephanie: They started thinking that I was part of the conspiracy that was
going on surrounding them,
****(Imagine that? What could have ever given them that idea?)
Stephanie:… and they said that I had used the money that had been raised
to buy the camper for myself.
(Stefanie took us to see this camper on the land of a man named Rex. Rex said
the camper would be $800. Stefanie told us, donation money had been waiting
for us. $600 in cash, $950 in a check from a church. We thought, “great, we have
enough”…but we wanted to check with DHR first to make sure a camper was
sufficient. We did end up checking with DHR and DHR said it is fine as long as
there is electrical and water hooked up to it. Stefanie called and said she got the
camper, and they got us a spot at Cheaha for a month until we figure out the next
step. We said, great, since they were not giving us our donation money at that
point, and they were holding onto it, and we were told this would be OUR
camper with donation money that they said they were holding onto for us, then
we were just grateful they got this camper with the money and then towed it up
the mountain for us. We moved all of our belongings into it, we set up the baby
stuff, and we told DHR our situation. DHR wants stability and wants to show
ownership of something like that, so we told Stefanie since our donation money
was used to buy the camper, (so we thought), that we would need the title in our
name to show DHR. Stefanie then said, her husband told her it needed to be in
their names. We then asked, well then where is the donation money? She then
asked if we were accusing her of using donation money. We said, “Well, we were
all in agreement that we were getting this camper so DHR could come out and
look, and we could get our baby back. You and Tammy are holding onto
donations, so either we paid for the camper in our name, with donation money
that we have not seen, but are told we have, OR we are not owners of this
camper, and you own it and we need to go find something else.”
She got very upset, blamed us for accusing her of stealing our donations, which
we did not do. However, she and her husband refused to have the camper in our
name, and around the same time Tammy told her employee Rob, to come tell us
we needed to be out by the end of that week (when she had originally told us we
could be there for a month under the VIP program where we volunteer, which we
were still in the process of setting up with the person running the program)…So,
we went in one week from having a camper, a stable place to pull it, EXTRA
donation money AFTER paying for the camper AND a volunteer job to pay for
our expenses of living there, To, NO camper, NO donation money and NO place
to leave a camper even if we had one. This all happened under our nose in one
Since we were not remaining quiet about this supposed donation money that we
were told there was, Tammy then formed a meeting in which she gave us the $600
in cash (which $400 came from Rob and the other $200 from 2 other employees
there, and $950 in a check which came from a church). So, the donation money
we were told we had BEFORE that $800 camper was not given to us until
AFTER we were kicked out of the camper we thought we had bought with that
money we never saw until afterwards.)
Hamlin: Did they say anything specifically to you about the conspiracy
that you were a part of?
Stephanie: Just that I was using money that was raised for them to buy the
camper and the powers that are against them are in work and this is part of
****(Well, I guess they got that right. In the Bible it is written, “we
wrestle not against flesh and blood but against powers and
(At that time, we had not seen the money. We were told there was $1600
raised for us and that the $800 could go towards the camper. But then she
decided it was hers, after we moved into it.)
Hamlin: Did you have any knowledge or understand what the powers were
they were talking about?
Stephanie: Christian talked about how the way the baby was born and
everything meant that he was divine and that the doctors saw this and the
doctor had something to do with social services coming in
****(Something about her words isn’t right. You are way too smart to fall
into this trap after losing your baby for making religious statements.)
(We said he was born en caul. And when you look that up, it means many
different spiritual things. The nurses at the time when they saw me
pushing out the baby completely in the sac were amazed and called him
an angel baby and that it apparently meant he was destined for great
things. It also speaks of caulbearers in the Bible. It is a very rare
occurrence. We thought it was amazing, so we told people we thought we
could trust at the time. At this time, we thought Stefanie was trustworthy.
This was before the camper ordeal.)
Hamlin: So Christian said the way the baby was born was divine?
(Actually, no, he did not. Danielle did. Because it is a “wives tale” that I
have a right to believe that when born en caul, he will be a lucky child as
talked about all over the internet and in history.)
****(So, I just want to say something here to you and Christian. I know
this is not what you would have expected to recognize as a blessing, but
we are told in the Bible that everything we suffer here on earth for His
righteousness is rewarded in heaven eternally. This child indeed falls into
that category. He also falls into the category of having a divine purpose,
and that has and will continue to be fulfilled as the light is shining bright
with his new life and it is against a terrible darkness in our nation. The
baby remains unaware of his key place in history, but God loves you and
Christian, his beloved and favored children, so much that he wanted you
to have a sign and proof of that. Darkness is overwhelming, but the en
caul birth is meant as an omen to give you courage and confidence in
whatever you decide to do. God is indeed with you and will continue to
give you signs and wonders along the way. The child may be a sacrifice
towards great destiny, but he is everything to you. God agrees that he is
indeed very special.)
Hamlin: Did he ever name anybody else as part of the conspiracy?
Stephanie: He talked about the social worker that took the baby being part
of it, that he could see Satan in her eyes.
****(I’m gonna say this is a lie, that Stephanie had access to what
Danielle actually said and got this mixed up either on purpose or because
she couldn’t remember. Lying is hard work. So many details to keep
(Yes, a lie. We don’t just run around saying everyone is Satan all day,
everyday. I, Danielle, said that one time to Rachel Israel when she took
the baby, and that’s it. Christian has never said those words about
Hamlin: Okay. Did he talk about Satan in any other way? Refer to you or
anybody you know as Satan?
Stephanie: No, not really, I remember.
Christian: Objection, because this is where we are getting into our
religious beliefs. Is it not irrelevant?
****(good point, Christian)
Hamlin: Still state of mind, your honor. I don’t think it has anything to do
with religious beliefs.
****(RED FLAGS!!!Oh my, did he really just say this?)
(The entire time, our religious beliefs have been turned into questions
about our “state of mind”.)
Stephanie: From what I remember it was just specifically the social
worker that took the baby. They actually both said the same thing about
seeing Satan in her eyes.
Hamlin: So, Ms. Holm said that at the hospital?
Stephanie: She did. She did also, yes.
(Stefanie was not even at the hospital! She picked us up at the hospital at
discharge, and did not even come inside.)
Hamlin: Did he make any other statements to you that would lead you to
be concerned about his state of mind?
Stephanie: He talked a lot about this being a conspiracy. He talked a lot
about the visions that he had and things like that.
****(Did you supposedly trust this Judas with conspiracy and vision information
after she bought the camper out from under you or before ? I think I’m gonna say
no. No, you are smarter than that.)
(We did think we could trust her for a short amount of time. We did tell her
we felt weird about Tammy and what had happened with Tammy. Stefanie
said, “this is just a job to me, if I found our Tammy had anything to do
with this I would leave my job.” That was all a lie. She was roping us in,
to then throw us under the bus. We did say how we felt many people were
in on this plot…because many people are, and they are proving this even
****(So it was before she took the camper and betrayed you.)
Stephanie: It was during that time when it became more about the visions
and conspiracy and less about the baby. That’s when I really became
concerned. It’s at that point that I became concerned. Everyone has
religious beliefs, you know. When it’s less about the baby and more about
the beliefs is when I became concerned.
****(How about when you took the camper out from underneath them,
lady? Were you concerned about the baby then? Think, how convenient of
her to state that. Didn’t we put up with that same garbage on the facebook
site for weeks it seemed like? Now we know why they did that. It was to
back up the court testimony.)
Hamlin: Did you ever hear them say anything about eagles and that a
prophecy was coming true?
(Is this not leading the witness? His OWN witness?)
Stephanie: Oh…my gosh…the night before we went to look at the trailer or
the camper, he had suggested that I look at his facebook so that I could see
his revelation of his spiritual awakening was how he said it.
****(Oh my, Christian, did you actually witness the truth to her in the
capacity of a missionary? I thought missionaries kept everything a secret.
Please forgive the sarcasm.)
Stephanie: So that night I thought, hey, I’ll look. And his latest post was
about an eagle spreading his wings and taking flight. I didn’t understand
any of it, you know, whatever. And then the next day we were in the car
and we were leaving the mountain and we passed a motorcycle group with
eagles on their backs, and Danielle turned to him and said,”Did you see
that? They had eagles on their vests.” and he said, “No, I didn’t see that.”
And she said, “Well, maybe that was it.” And I’m sitting there, and you
know, just listening…
(“Synchronicities? coincidences? patterns that line up? Are these all signs
of a delusional person? Or just things that happen in life that are very
miraculously coincidental and it is interesting pointing it out? What does
this have to do with the kidnapping of our baby?)
****(The Bible says signs and wonders shall follow those who believe. Is
this no longer allowed? If not, should we inform the Creator?)
Christian objects. What is the relevance here?
Stephanie: I listened to his explanation. I really can’t repeat it verbatim.
****(This is all they’ve got? They are really stretching things to get
something out of nothing from innocent conversation.)
Stephanie: I just listened to his explanation about how it was just the
prophecy and everything and how it was just one more example of the
prophecy being fulfilled.
****(I’m going to take a guess and say these are Christians who don’t
believe that the gifts of the spirit, including prophecy are for these days.
They teach in many denominations that the gifts mentioned throughout the
New Testament died with the apostles and any such thing in our time is of
the DEVIL! Be interesting to find out what church they go to or were
raised in. This would prove, since it is a counter religious belief, that all of
this is religious persecution. Is there anyway to discover their belief?)
Hamlin: Had you been concerned?
Stephanie: A little.
(She is concerned because she is sinning in front of children of God.)
Hamlin: And did it appear that they were both caught up in the prophecy?
Not just him?
****(This question is pure religious persecution. He is talking like a
Southern Baptist and who knows about the judge? I think Church of
Christ, Presbyterians, and Nazarenes feel the same way. Many Catholics
would not approve too much either. Your beliefs would more likely fit right
in with Pentecostals, Assembly of God, Church of God, Bapticostals, Full
Gospels, Four Square, Apostolic, and Charismatic non-denominations
though. Good point to bring up. We talk like this all the time to each other
in these other churches. With all of them it would be abnormal not to.
They are building a federal case out of it for your mental instability. Grrrr.
You came into town with the wrong religion and this LINE of questioning
Stephanie: She seemed to look for reasons to support all of the things that
he said. She looked for ways to verify that everything, the ways that he
saw, the visions, and things like that.
Hamlin: Babies provisions..
Stephanie: I asked. Danielle stated she had a couple of onesies and a
blanket before the stuff that I brought them. It’s what they told me all that
****(LIES!!! Verifiable by the hospital, but they are all LYING too.)
(Our car was full. And my bag was strictly for baby supplies only.)
Hamlin: Did you ask them how they were going to provide for that?
Stephanie says no………….moving forward, wanting to fix it.
Hamlin: Okay. So you didn’t say you all would provide or anything like
Stephanie: I can’t think of a specific instance when they said that.
Hamlin: Would you all say you are all on speaking terms today?
Stephanie: We’ve not had any contact since the donation money that was
taken up for them was turned over to them. After we gave them the money
we went out in the parking lot and spoke for a second and then that was it.
(No, we have not had any contact since we were kicked out of Cheaha
State Park for absolutely no reason and were lied to, betrayed, and had
everything stolen from underneath us. Yes, we did take the donation money
from kind donors that we ended up buying the camper we live in RIGHT
NOW and then we left to go live in that camper. )
Hamlin: Tammy said they didn’t ask for donations but if it was offered
they would expect it. Is that how you would feel?
Stephanie: Yeah, anytime anything was mentioned about doing for them
they expected it.
****(Oh, you mean like they took people at their word? Trusted them?)
Stephanie: …and they were…well, you said you were going to do this. You
know…what about this?
(We were being told there were donations for WEEKS. We did not know
from who, how much, where it was coming from, if that was a lie or
not….until an employee came forward and said they donated and wanted
to make sure we received it….and we hadnt! So, yes, we asked Tammy and
Stefanie and YES we did expect that when people gave money to give to
us, that it would be given OR given back to the donor. I was told multiple
times BY Stefanie that many different people donated baby items that SHE
was in possession of. I did not want people donating to us and then we not
getting the donations. People thought we were getting them, and we were
not. We never even got half the donations Stefanie said we were getting.
No, we do not ask, unless we knew there was something for us and they
were playing middlemen and not handing it over.)
****(So THAT is where these comments came from, both from Tammy and
her. It was a curious statement that both made and seemed to have no
relevance to anything. I couldn’t figure out how they would ever use
something like that. It had no substance. One cannot testify as to how
another “feels” about something and yet they both felt the need to do that,
to testify as to how you both were feeling as if they had some secret
knowledge into your inner being. It all makes sense now. They were in
defense mode for both their collusion and stealing.)
Hamlin: Almost like it become a demand…
****(This guy is a horrible person, sorry. They are working together in
concert. Can’t stand listening to them…)
Stephanie: It was very entitled, was how I would call it. Very entitled.
(Entitled to be told there are donations and then to not be given them!??
We have had SO many “donations” that we have never received, on many
different occasions. And this is OUR fault, yet again?)
****(Well you certainly are entitled and you act like it too: Entitled to the
truth and to be treated as human beings with respect instead of the worst
criminals on earth for being upset that your baby was the lucky one
chosen for child trafficking. You are SO ENTITLED! Never forget that!)
Christian: Did you testify in the first hearing that we never asked you all
Stephanie: In the beginning you didn’t ask for anything. Things we would
talk about offering things, you know, that we would try to acquire certain
Christian: Have we ever asked you for anything?
Stephanie: Yes, actually.
Christian: Can you state what that is, please?
Stephanie: The first thing that comes to mind was that after Danielle had
the baby she was still broke out with some sort of rash and asked me about
medicine for it.
(Actually she offered.)
Christian: Ok. Is that all?
Christian: So pretty much everything was offerings?
Christian: Now, did you approach me about using the donation to buy a
camper that Tory had offered for us to get?
Stephanie: Yes. I told you about the camper.
Christian: Okay. And at the time, you stated that there was only $600 that
was accessible, right?
Christian: Do you recall that Rob donated a majority of the money and
said that he had the rest of it covered to get the camper?
Christian: Do you recall in the meeting that we discussed that? And keep
in mind that things in today’s time are being recorded that we discussed.
Hamlin: I object to that, you talking about things being recorded. I don’t
know if that is a question or not. Can you restate?
Christian: Can you recall that when we discussed in that meeting that there
was enough money because Rob said that he would cover the rest of it?
Stephanie: At the time that we bought the camper Rob had not said
anything about having the money. Rob had brought me $400 from his
family to put in with the $600 that I had on hand, but that is all of the
money that was available at the time when I bought the camper.
(But, yet they were holding onto a check for $950 as well as cash for $600
that they were not allowing us to have until we asked for it later, because
we knew they had it.)
Christian: All right, do you recall the discussion that we had between
ourselves in that meeting that the camper was to be put in our name, but
instead it was put in your name?
Stephanie: It was never discussed that the camper would be put in your
name whenever I bought it with money from myself and my husband.
That was actually one of the requirements that my husband had because he
knew that I wanted to make sure you all had somewhere to live so badly,
that if that was one of the requirements the DHR had that that was a no go,
that it had to be in our name.
Christian: And when we first went to go look at the camper, you drove us,
Stephanie: I did.
Christian: And did you like that camper?
Stephanie: I did. I mean it was ……..from where we had just went, it was a
decent camper compared to the trailer we had just been in.
Christian: Did you make a statement to us that that camper had two bunk
beds in the rear of it and that you would like to have it?
Stephanie: I did. I liked it and said, well, I’ve been looking for one of these
Christian: Okay. And whenever we left the property from where the
camper was and we spoke, and you asked us how did we want to handle
this as far as with paying for it, and we said that we needed to check with
DHR to make sure that the camper was okay. Do you remember that?
Stephanie: Actually, the conversation we had was that Danielle had said
what would, if we did buy the camper what would we do with it when we
move into the apartment? Because there was no where to park it at the
(What I actually said, was IF we were FORCED to move into an
apartment by DHR not sure what we would do with the camper then. So,
that is what brought us to the decision to wait to see what DHR had said
about a camper, before putting the donation money down on it. We asked
DHR right away, but Stefanie had already bought it for herself at that
time, in which she said, she got it for us, but then when we moved in, she
said it was hers and would be in her name only…so again, we thought the
donation money in HER hands was going towards this camper. At the time
she said it was her camper we still had not been given the donation money
they said they had for the camper.)
Christian: Do you recall when I said to you that we would need to wait to
see whose name we would need to put it in to make sure that the camper
was going to be okay for us to live in?
Stephanie: No, because $600 was not enough to buy the camper, and we
had actually discussed my husband and I paying for half, and you guys
paying for half. And then I talked to my husband about it and he said that a
camper is a lot of upkeep and he knows one of the guys that checked the
camper and he said that it would have to be completely rewired, and that
the amount of money that it would cost to rewire it….that $600 was not
enough to buy it let alone rewire it, so he and I discussed just buying it
ourselves and letting you all use it. And then whenever you was done with
it he could take it on the road with him. And so that is what we decided to
do instead of risking someone else coming in and buying the camper or
DHR wanting you all to have somewhere to live before all of that could
take place. He and I decided to just buy it and have it pulled up to Cheaha
for you, have it worked on and get it fixed as well as we could so that you
could live with it. So that’s when he and I bought it.
(If it was such a bad camper with so many problems, why did they want it
****(I thought the same thing. If it was such a problem why would they
care if Christian and Danielle had it?)
Christian: Now if your objective was to get a camper in our name for
stability would it not have made sense for us to once we had the money
available to not put it in our name?
Stephanie: It would have. It would have. But we were also putting money
into fixing it and everything, and it was my family that was fixing it. And
the only reason they did it was because out of request for me and I told
them that it’s ours, it’s okay, you can fix it because when they’re done with
it we will be living in it.
****(Really? They were going to live in it?)
(This is a one bedroom camper, with one small bathroom and 2 bunk beds,
kind of like our camper now. She has 5 kids and 2 adopted kids. 7 kids
total. 9 people in a small one bedroom camper.)
Stephanie: So if you could just make it work well enough for now until
they get an apartment, and so that’s why…
Christian: Do you recall that the campsite that it was in was next to the
Christian: Okay. And the church, they had paid for that for a month?
Stephanie: I don’t remember how long it was but they paid for it.
Christian: Okay, but you do remember that the church paid for it? What is
that process called when they donate a lot for a camper for so long?
Stephanie: It’s uh…uh…I don’t remember what the term is that we use as I
don’t do reservations very often so I don’t remember.
Christian: The VIP program?
Stephanie: Yes, the VIP program.
Christian: Can you tell us a little bit about the VIP Program, please?
Stephanie: The VIP program is whenever you can get a campsite for a
discounted rate to do work in the park.
Christian: Okay. Were we ever asked to do any work in the park?
Stephanie: You all were asked to do work on the chapel from what I….you
know, let me back up on that…I was told so I didn’t actually hear it myself.
I was told you would be asked to do work on the chapel.
Christian: Did I ever show gratification and I said that I would more
than…uh…thankfully help anyone if they ever asked anything of me?
Stephanie: Yes. You did. That’s what you said.
Christian: All right, and did I ever receive any note from the chapel or
anybody that was in control of the donations for helping us?
Stephanie: Yes. You received the name and the phone number for Tony
****(Is this true? I’m going to say it is not.)
(Tammy waited about 3 weeks to tell us anything about this volunteer
program. We kept saying, “what can we do, what can we do??” She then
told us about Tony Knight and gave us his number. We called him THAT
day. The next day, she told her employee Rob to make us leave.)
Christian: Okay. Do you know when that was about from the day that we
arrived at the Cheaha State Park, from the first day that we arrived there at
Stephanie: I don’t remember how many days past.
Christian: Was it about two weeks? Or no, I’m sorry. Was it about a little
over a week?
Stephanie: I really don’t remember how much time past between the
camper getting up there….it seems like it wasn’t more than a week.
Christian: Okay, and how long did you all actually end the donations to us
from day 1 whenever we were there or from day 1 from whenever the
donations were received?
Stephanie: I guess it would have been around the same time frame, a
Christian: About a week.
Stephanie: I’m not really sure. It might have been less than a week.
Christian: About how long did we stay there or the length of period of
Stephanie:( Doesn’t remember)
Christian: Okay, so normally a VIP program is for a month time. Is that
how it works?
Stephanie: Uh…for 30 days, yeah.
Christian: 30 days, okay. Were we given that 30 days?
Stephanie: I don’t remember because I don’t remember why you left in the
first place. I actually didn’t know that you left the camper until someone
came in and told me that you all were gone.
(Tammy kicked us out, via her employee Rob, for absolutely no reason. We
were just about to start volunteering, and also it was because DHR
needed stability showing we owned the camper and this was when we
already moved into the camper that was then bought by Stefanie….so, we
also needed to find something else to live in because Stefanie claimed that
camper after we moved in, and then Tammy had us leave.)
Christian: Were we not asked to leave?
Stephanie: Not in front of me, you weren’t.
Christian: Did Tammy not ask for us to leave?
Hamlin objects. Stephanie just said not in front of her.
Christian: From your own opinion, is it wrong for people to have different
Stephanie: Absolutely not.
Christian: What is your opinion as far as us being capable or being
incapable of being a parent?
Christian: It’s just personal opinion, your honor.
Hamlin: I still object. She hadn’t been around enough to have formed an
opinion of that knowledge.
****(He will not allow you to establish prejudice)
(But yet she was around long enough to form an opinion of how we
function mentally with our religious beliefs?)
judge permits opinion…
Stephanie: I have said since day 1 that I believed Danielle would be a
good mother. I have said from the beginning that my focus has mainly
been on Danielle. I could see how much she was suffering without her
(And the separation of true love ensues. She saw day in and day out how
loving Christian was, how he attended to all of my needs while recovering
from child birth, how he held my hand walking up stairs, helped me in and
out of the car, how he did everything any loving husband and father would
do for their family.)
****(He still does. You are his world.)
Christian: Do you have something against me as a character and/or a
Christian: Your, honor, she just directed her attention toward my wife and I
was just trying to figure out why she didn’t address me.
Stephanie: Your focus wasn’t on the baby during our conversations.
Danielle’s was. But yours wasn’t on the baby. That’s when I kinda wanted
to separate myself from the situation because you were more focused on
your message than you were the baby.
(Boom!!!!Prejudice. Thank you, Stephanie. Her religious
prejudice against yours required her to assist in having the baby removed
regardless of what she said she felt about Danielle being a good mother. In
her estimation you were representing your faith and it wasn’t her belief, so
you had no right to continue to have yours. Dare you speak of it at a
difficult time in life? Do Christians not do that very thing? Are we not
devoting a facebook site just for that sole purpose to share faith and
support for one another in this same faith? Should we all lose our children
because we hold fast to our faith?)
Christian: Okay, now we have already discussed that people can have their
Christian: Did I not ride with you to go look at a camper for our child?
Stephanie: You did.
Christian: Did I not ride with your daughter all the way to Montgomery?
Stephanie: My daughter’s boyfriend.
Christian: Yeah. For our child?
Stephanie: Yeah. You did.
Christian: Did I not have multiple events where I have been with you and
I’m fighting for our child?
Stephanie: You were with me during every time that I took you all
somewhere. You were there.
Christian: So I was fighting for my child?
Stephanie: You were there. And yes, you were fighting for your child. You
are fighting for him now.
Christian: Okay. Did you not tell Danielle she was happy to see you taking
care of me? Did you not tell Danielle that you were so happy to see
another man like her husband taking care of her?
Stephanie: Yes, I did.
(One day we were shopping for campers before the entire camper fiasco,
we were getting into Stefanie’s car because she OFFERED to drive us and
take us to a few places she knew of. We accepted her offer. I was still very
swollen and sore. Christian was helping me into the car like he always
does and Stefanie said, “it is SO nice to see such a good man care for you,
just as my husband cares for me. There are not too many men out there left
Attorney (Ms. Miller, I think) Did you ever go to the Holm’s campsight
located behind the pavilion?
Stephanie: No, I did not.
Miller: So you never saw what their accommodations were when they
were at the campsight?
Stephanie? No, I did not.
Miller: When you testified that the Holms were living in a camper I guess
at some point after the birth of the baby, was that in fact your camper? The
camper that you were talking about?
Stephanie: The first camper, yes, that was my camper.
Miller: So, after you bought the camper, you actually did allow them to
live in the camper?
(At the time of moving into the camper we were still under the impression
this was OUR camper with donation money. Turns out it was not, so we
moved out so we could have something someone could not take away from
us later, as we were looking for stability. We did not know at the time it
was not our donation money that bought the camper.)
Stephanie: Yes, I did.
Miller: Was any type of rent charged?
Stephanie: It was free.
Miller: You also mentioned something about apartments. What apartment?
Stephanie: Yes. There was discussion, plans, I’m not really sure how to put
it, that as soon as an apartment became available the low-cost housing in
Clay county, as soon as one became available that was a place for them to
(This is what Tammy was trying to force on us with her manipulation and
control tactics for some odd reason. We never said anything about living
in an apartment and once DHR approved a camper we said we were
looking for a camper only. It was our “own home” and much cheaper for
Miller: When was the last time that you had any contact with the Holms?
Stephanie: It’s been over a month, I think.
Miller: And that was prior to them leaving the park?
Judge asks Stephanie why she didn’t refer to the camper as the first
Stephanie: Because I was told that after they left mine they moved into
Male Attorney: Is it fair to say that you kinda headed up the donation
stuff? Made a lot of the contacts? Got a lot of the things they got donated?
Stephanie: The baby things, yes, it would.
Attorney: And the campers?
Stephanie: That would have been me and Tammy both. It wouldn’t have
been just me.
Attorney: But you were part of it? You took them to see the campers?
Attorney: And the donations from the church, who would have been the
contact person to call the church for them?
Stephanie: That was done through another employee at park. I knew that it
was something they were hoping to do was to take up a love offering at
Attorney:What efforts did you say that the Holms put forth to raise any of
Stephanie: I don’t remember any. I don’t remember any.
Christian: Do you remember the backpack that my wife would carry, the
green one that had all the baby clothes in it?
Stephanie: Actually I remember you carrying it most of the time. She had
just had the baby. I remember you carrying it.
(Oh, but Christian never did anything for his wife right?)
Christian: Yeah, we had some baby clothes, baby clothes and items in that
Stephanie: I don’t know. I never looked in your backpack. I don’t know.
Christian: Did my wife ever speak to you about us having some clothes for
Stephanie: She talked about two onesies, and I remember there being
onesies because she said the little body suits and she held up her hand, and
I laughed and I said, Onesies? And she said, yeah. I’ve got two of them
and a blanket.
(I know what onsies are. She doesnt remember a whole lot, but she
remembers little details like this?? hmmm….I would never call them body
suits. And I had about 10 onsies, pants, socks, booties, hats, diapers, all in
one bag the entire time with everything else in the car in Montgomery.)
Christian: So, we did have clothes for our child at the time. So we were
prepared at the time for the child.
Stephanie: With two onesies and a blanket, yes.
(And I even showed her the wraps I had to carry the baby because I was
excited about them. She gave me an additional wrap, a different style.
This was not all we had, but even if it WAS….she then gave us even
more…and all before the shelter case hearing where they said we did not
have enough. We had EVERYTHING one could need.)
Christian: Did DHR call you, or did anybody call you on the phone and
say that we were dangerous?
Stephanie: Say that you were dangerous, no.
Christian: Did you call anyone and say to them that we were dangerous?
Christian: You didn’t call Rob’s father, Dan, and say that we were
Stephanie: I called and asked him if he thought you were dangerous?
Christian: What did he say?
Stephanie: He said no. He did not believe you were dangerous. And I
actually followed that with a call to DHR to make sure that she did not
think you were dangerous also.
(What?? Why would she just randomly call DHR to “make sure” they do
not think they are dangerous when she KNOWS DHR (she was a foster
parent) and she KNOWS they are using everything that can against us?)
Christian: But somebody did call you, though, about us. Correct?
Stephanie: No. Just the DHR worker.
(But she just said that SHE called DHR to make sure that they did not
think we were dangerous as well.)
Christian: DHR worker called you about us? Could you tell us what they
asked, please, or what they told you about us?
Hamlin: That would be hearsay.
Judge: She was a party to the conversation.
Hamlin: As to what DHR told about them.
Christian: I am trying to show how a picture is being falsely painted of us,
if that makes sense. Am I saying that correctly? Yeah, that they are making
Hamlin: Where he is going with it is that maybe DHR called this witness
and made some allegations that weren’t true or asked questions trying to
illicit information that may not be true by the Holms.
Judge Walker: May have tried to sway this witnesses opinion about the
Christian: Yes, Ma’am.
Stephanie: That was mostly my own misunderstanding because she said
Hamlin: object to anything DHR witness said.
Stephanie: So I can say what she said that caused me to formulate the
opinion? I misunderstood the conversation basically, which is why I kind
of wanted to take a step back and talk to Mr. Keith and the conversation
that he is talking about.
(Okay, so DHR did call her to illicit information about us from Stefanie?)
Christian: Did your opinion about me change with your conversation with
Stephanie: No, it didn’t actually. It was more just making sure that I wasn’t
wrong. I didn’t think you were dangerous and so I wanted to make sure
that my opinion of you wasn’t wrong.
(Okay, so SHE did call DHR?)
Christian: Okay, and where did this opinion come from?
Stephanie: My opinion of you? You never talked about violence. You
never in any way talked about, in any way make it sound like you would
harm someone, so that’s where my opinion that you weren’t dangerous
(So, she was trying to paint a picture of Christian being dangerous, and
she wanted to know if he was dangerous, but he was never violent or
Christian: But you felt that I was dangerous? So I’m trying to find out
where that came from.
Stephanie: No. I’m not saying that I thought you were dangerous. I was
calling Mr. Keith and asking his opinion as to whether you could
potentially be dangerous.
(If she never thought he was dangerous, why would she feel compelled to
call the man who donated a majority of money to us, (a retired pastor) to
compel him to give her information about if we are dangerous or not?
This does not even make an ounce of sense. )
Attorney offers to clear this up. Judge agrees.
Hamlin: You said you called somebody to kind of give you a better sense
about whether your opinion of Mr. Holms was dangerous?
(But, WHY did she feel compelled to enter herself into our situation and
call DHR about US? This was AFTER we had already LEFT Cheaha State
Park and were living away from them, completely separately and having
nothing to do with them. Dan Keith, the man she is speaking of here, who
had donated money to us to get the camper we are currently living in, got
a phone call from her, and she had told him that WE are dangerous and to
be careful. And now she is all over the place saying she was only asking if
we were dangerous and that she called DHR to make sure they didnt think
that. ??? This was about a month after not even seeing or hearing from us,
so why so invested in our business all of a sudden?)
Hamlin: Okay. Your opinion came from your observations. Did DHR ever
say anything that would lead to your suspicion of being dangerous.
(She just said that he was never aggressive or violent and that she was not
saying he was dangerous. She was only trying to “make sure”….but now
here Hamlin is leading her saying she had a suspicion he IS dangerous.)
****(That was pretty slick on his part. Evil, but slick.)
Stephanie: It was just the flow of things. It was uh…the situation has
escalated. Can I get your work address because we’d rather not get
your home address on the subpoena?
(Okay, so DHR tried making us sound more “dangerous” to scare people
into thinking that…well, how else would DHR know that Stefanie was not
on talking terms with us, and want her in as a witness if they did not have
a negative conversation about us?)
Stephanie: It was stepping away from that that… I thought I’ve got seven
kids. That made me nervous so that’s when I called someone who had a
friendship with him to see if I was worked up for no reason.
Hamlin: So that was the basis for your opinion?
Hamlin: What he did himself, not what anybody told you in the
(Again, leading witness and painting a false picture of Christian. Stefanie
JUST testified that she did not necessarily think he was dangerous. She
JUST testified to Christian when he asked that she did not say that. She
was just “making sure”. Hamlin trying to get her to say she thought he
was dangerous here, when she said before this she did not say that.)
Christian: Did an agent come to your house asking you about our identity?
Christian: An agent didn’t come to your house asking you or trying to
gather information about who we are? You didn’t tell Dan on the phone
that an agent came to your house asking about our identity?
Stephanie: No. No one ever came to my house asking about your identity.
****(Going to say this is a lie)
Ms. Miller: Who is Dan?
Stephanie: I’m not sure.
Christian: Dan is Rob, her co-worker’s father.
Stephanie: Okay. I did not know his first name. I call him Mr. Keith.
Beginning Tape #5
(TAPE 5: Charles “Chuck” Haworth and “Mike” the security guard at
Regional Medical Center
The evening of October 11, 2016 at approximately 4:30pm, when Baby
Holm was taken off of his mother’s breast WHILE BREASTFEEDING,
Chuck Haworth stood by Danielle’s side, demanding her to give her baby
up, while holding her right arm back so she would release her baby.
Chuck Haworth TESTIFIES in this tape to:
• Danielle was BREASTFEEDING at the time of removal
• The “lady assisting the DHR lady actually took the child.” (this
lady he is referring to said in testimony she “never touched the
• Chuck Haworth held her “arms” back (really it was only her right
arm, as her left arm was holding the baby as he was feeding on her
• There was no emergency at the time.
• We looked “just like anyone else” up on the unit
Chuck Haworth also testified to the following lies under oath:
• DHR had an order to remove the child (No they did not. An order
was not even signed until 5:20 pm, and they took him at 4:30pm.
• He said Danielle just “didn’t comply” when being threatened to
hand over her baby…but he also admitted she was breastfeeding at
the time. How can a mother just give up her newborn infant to
strangers for NO reason, with NO emergency and WHILE he is
“Mike” The Security Guard Testifies to:
• This all started because of a nurse googling Christian’s name and
a similar name coming up of a drug smuggler and human
• The post-partum unit went on lock down AFTER we left because of
the false information about us.
• Christian was never violent, threatening, loud, forceful.
• Christian was “irritated” “upset” and “concerned”. But never
angry or violent.
• Christian “left the hospital peacefully”.)
Charles Hayward: Regional Medical Center, Anniston, Director of
Security since 2003, but working there 22 years.
Charles became familiar with the Holms when called to assist DHR
postpartum up in the women’s center.
Kirby interrupts to ask Mr. Hayward what the black thing in his shirt is.
Asks if that is a recording device.
Charles: No, it is part of a radio.
Kirby: Oh, okay.
****(They are really concerned about this, aren’t they? Must keep
Charles: We were called to assist post-partum staff and the DHR against
the possibility that there might be a little trouble when they take custody
of the child.
Hamlin: All right. Do you recall why DHR was up there? Did anybody
inform you why?
Charles: The staff had informed us that they had found some things on ….
Christian: Objection. Your honor, hearsay.
Hamlin: All right. I’m gonna ask the question again, and I want you to
testify as to far as the truth of the matter but as to why you went up there
to perform, so can you without so much hearsay say why you all became
Charles: I went up to assist just in case I was needed.
Hamlin: Just removal?
Charles: Sometimes, yes.
Hamlin: All right, and did you understand there could be some conflict in
Hamlin: What did you find when you got up there?
Charles: There really wasn’t any physical conflict going on up there. There
was some….I really wasn’t in the room at the time but then they were taken
aside and told that they were going to take custody of the child. And they
wanted us to stand by in case they needed us.
Hamlin: Okay. Were you in the room when the baby was removed from
Charles: Yes, I was.
Hamlin: Did you participate in that?
Charles: Yes, I did.
Hamlin: What was your participation in it?
Charles: My participation was I had to pull the mother’s hands apart so
they could take the child.
(No, actually, he was standing on the right side of me, and he was holding
my right arm down once I realized they were going to take the baby and I
was twisting my body to the right so the baby could remain latched on,
while holding him with my left arm.)
Hamlin: Okay. Was the mother squeezing the child?
Attorney: Was she squeezing the child in an inappropriate way?
Charles: I tended to think so, yes, cause she was trying to avoid it being
Attorney: In your opinion did it become a danger to the child the way she
was holding the child?…
Charles: I think so.
Hamlin: And to your knowledge, DHR had an order to remove the child?
(Based on hearsay from Stacy Jackson who was lying to them all, because
there was no pick up order.)
Hamlin: And was it just you and the mother and DHR or was anyone else
in the room that you remember?
Charles: The mother of the child, DHR, and I believe it was a sheriff’s
deputy. I’m not totally sure.
Hamlin: Did the mother make any statements that you recall at the time
that the child was being removed?
Charles: Only that we were taking the child and we weren’t supposed to be
taking the child from its mother.
(Oh, but I thought I was yelling out things about beasts, and the devil,
etc…?? So, Charles heard the truth, that I was saying what kind of
“humans” take babies away from mothers for no reason??)
Hamlin: The results of that did the maternity ward part of the hospital
have to be shut down?
Charles: Yes, it did.
Attorney: Why exactly was it shut down, do you recall?
Charles: There was a threat made on the departure of the father of the
child. It was relayed to us and the chief nurse, and the chief nurse thought
it would be…
(It was testified later, that they locked the unit down when we LEFT the
hospital due to Christian stating this at the nurses station: “This will not
be the last time you hear about this. Remember this day, because this will
go down in history as the day that you allowed a kidnapping of a baby
from his innocent parents”)
Christian: Objection, your honor. Hearsay.
Hamlin: Again, not to the truth of it…
a male voice inserts here: To show action and conformity herewith.
Charles: I was informed that the unit had to be shut down and secured.
Hamlin: And was it?
Charles: Yes, it was.
Hamlin: And you said you were head of security. You are the one.that
actually put the protocol into place?
Charles: Yes, I am. Yes.
Attorney: But now you didn’t hear the threat yourself?
Charles: Not myself, no.
Hamlin: Anytime since you’ve been there roughly in the last 13 years have
you had to do that?
Charles: Oh probably 10 or 12 times.
Hamlin: So, that’s not a common thing?
Hamlin: And to shut it down, the threat had to be somewhat credible,
Charles: Yes, I believe so.
Hamlin: And you make the calls for the security purposes, right?
****(Especially after you have been told what to do by the hospital staff,
eh, Mr. Charles?)
(He JUST said, how he was told by staff they needed to shut down the unit.
He did not make this call, they did.)
****(Even though you just admitted you didn’t hear what caused them to
request the hospital shut down, so who really made the call?)
Hamlin: Had you had any dealings with Mr. Holms prior to that call being
Hamlin: Since that time have you had any contact with them?
Charles: Personal contact, no.
Hamlin: How many days was the wing shut down?
Charles: That night we hired a police officer to stand fast and stand there
all night till 12 the next day, then the unit continued to stay in the lots over
the weekend, so it was about 4 days.
****(Protesting at a hospital could cost them when they do this kind of
(People start their own chaos, and cause problems and make victims then
have to pay for the blame of the precautions they feel they must make
because of the chaos they created.)
Hamlin: So, other than the brief period when you were in the hospital
room you have had no face to face contact with them.
Charles: None whatsoever.
Hamlin: Have you received anything?
Charles: Today I did, yes, while I was in court.
Hamlin: Who’d you receive it from?
Charles: From Mr. Holm.
Hamlin: Did he hand it to you himself?
Hamlin: And what is that?
Charles: It looks like some form of some semi-legal document charging
me with various crimes.
Hamlin: You think you can interpret what crimes he is charging you with?
Charles: Yep. Kidnapping and conspiracy, things of that nature.
Hamlin: Have you ever been served with a paper like that from anybody
Attorney: Does that cause you concern?
Charles: It does cause me concern. The reason why I am here today it
caused me concern when he came to the hospital on Wednesday.
Attorney: You said he came to the hospital on Wednesday?
Hamlin: Did you have direct contact with him?
Hamlin: Did another one of your employees have contact with..?
Charles: Yes. Security Officer Smith.
Hamlin: Without saying what he said, did he relay something that caused
you to have concern for the hospital?
Christian: Objection your honor. He is directing the witness. Hearsay.
Hamlin: A concern for you personally, the hospital, or…all of the above?
Hamlin: And exactly what date was that you recall?
Charles: Wednesday afternoon.
Hamlin: Is Mr.Smith here today?
Hamlin: Can you look at this and see if that is a copy that accurately
represents what you received?
Charles: Yes, it looks like it.
Judge admits it. Attorney passes the witness.
Christian: When is the first time that you met me?
Charles: In post-partum.
Christian: When you first saw me was there also three officers?
Charles: I believe there was. Yes, sir.
Christian: Okay, and a female agent by the name of Israel?
Charles: I don’t recall what her name was but there was a female present.
Christian: Do you recall two officers taking me into another room and
holding me hostage, if you will?
Charles: Yes. I know they took you into another room to talk to you.
Christian: Okay, and you do recall holding my wife down as agent Israel,
the woman, came in and stole our baby off of her chest?
Charles: I didn’t hold your wife down, no.
Christian: You’ve already testified that you held her arms back?
Charles: No, I didn’t. I took her arms back.
****(What am I missing here? What is the difference?)
Christian: You took her arms back?
Charles: Yeah, as soon as the baby was removed from your wife the arms
were let go.
Christian: Well, that would be considered holding them back as you are
taking somebody off.
Hamlin: Objection, argumentative at that point.
Judge Walker: sustained.
Christian: Okay. Now do you recall agent Israel making a statement to my
Hamlin: Object to, hearsay on that.
Christian: Did you work for social services before this job?
Charles: No. Never.
Christian: You’ve never worked for social services?
Christian: Have you ever worked for the state before this job at all?
Charles: I worked for the Cleburne County Mental Health Society.
Christian: Okay. When you came up to the room was I showing any type
of violent behavior?
Christian: Was my wife showing any type of violent behavior?
Christian: Was my son crying?
Charles: I don’t recall that, no.
Christian: Could you see any type of emergency whatsoever?
Charles: Not at that point in time, no.
Christian: Alright, so from your opinion it seemed to be a perfectly normal
Charles: I can’t make that judgment cause I didn’t see you, hardly.
Christian: In your opinion we looked like a normal situation as a
Charles: Just like anybody else up there.
Christian: Alright. Who informed you to come up and assist?
Charles: It was the charge nurse at post-partum.
Christian: The charge nurse? And that’s all that you know of? That’s who
gave you the order?
Charles: That’s who told us that they needed us on site, yeah.
Christian: Did you make any statements to my wife?
(He said, “Danielle, let go of your baby now. You need to give him up, you
have to do what they say”.)
Charles: Not that I recall, except I might have said cooperate with the
Christian: Whenever you held my wife’s arms back, do you remember
putting up the side rails as well to lock her in?
Charles: I don’t remember that, no. That wouldn’t have been called for.
(He put up the higher right side rail up and then pulled my right arm in
towards him so I couldn’t hold our baby with that arm.)
Christian: No further questions.
Allison Miller (GAL) : When you came into the room to assist in the
removal of the child I believe your testimony was the mother was in the
room, is that correct?
Charles: There was the DHR case worker and an investigator, somebody…
Allison Miller (GAL) : And the father….I should have been more clear.
The father wasn’t in the room at the time?
Charles: Yeah, I think he was. I think they asked him to come out and I
Allison Miller (GAL): Did you or anyone else give the mother a directive
to hand over the child because….
Charles: I didn’t give any directive.
(But, he just admitted that he may have told me to “cooperate with
DHR”….he DID give me a directive to GIVE HIM UP AND DO WHAT
Allison Miller (GAL): Okay. Did you witness it? Did you witness anyone
Allison Miller: Was she asked to turn over the child prior to you helping
remove the baby?
Allison Miller GAL: Was that done more than once or….
(Ms. Miller, what kind of picture are you trying to paint here of your
client’s mother who had her baby ripped off of her chest while
breastfeeding (AND your client was assaulted by this act as well!). Was
your client’s mother supposed to just throw her hands up in the air, and
just hand over her child for NO reason when being threatened and without
probable cause, without an emergency, without any harm being done to
her child? Without a warrant, without a court order? Was she supposed to
just hand her newborn infant over to strangers for NO REASON and be
okay with that? Was she supposed to just give her baby up when there was
NO legitimate reason to do so? Is this in the BEST INTEREST of YOUR
client? For him to have a mother who gives him up SO easily when she
did everything in her power to give him an extremely healthy upbringing
and growth process in her womb for 42 weeks?!)
Charles: I think a couple times.
Allison Miller (GAL): Was the mother breastfeeding the baby at the time?
Charles: Yes, I think so.
****(So he tells the truth)****
(DING DING DING…).
Hamlin: You felt the mother was actually in the middle of breastfeeding?
Charles: I think so. I’m not…I’m pretty sure….I know the baby was laying
on her chest.
Attorney: Okay, did you notice whether the mother was covered from the
chest up when the baby was removed?
Charles: I can’t remember, but I believe so. I’m not sure.
Attorney: You think she was covered up?
Charles: I think so.
(Out of anyone at all, the one who would’ve seen the most of the
breastfeeding IS this man. He was standing on my right side, on the same
side the baby was feeding. Haworth was standing almost where my head
was, he grabbed my arm, and I still was holding baby with left arm, still
feeding him, I WAS covered, but the cover started coming off, because I
was trying to hold the baby with my left arm as my right arm was being
held by Haworth. The cover was coming off, but he was still latched on,
and then Israel took the covers off as he was STILL latched on, so
Haworth was the closest point of view to my breast at that point, so he
would have seen more than anyone. And then ISrael took him off of me
and our baby started screaming.)
Christian: From your opinion do you think it is a normal emotion to
deliver a baby as a mother, and then to have people come in with false
accusations, and then to hold that baby closer?
Charles: I’m not a mother so I couldn’t answer that.
****(Dancing around the issue, are we?)
Christian: As a father, could you not understand…are you married?
Charles: Yes, I am.
Christian: Do you have children?
Charles: Yes, I do.
Christian: As a father, if you were standing by and if you saw your wife in
the same event, would you not be understanding of the situation because
of being put under duress in someone taking her child?
Hamlin: I object. He kind of lost me on the question there but I think he is
asking for a speculation that he infer that what was being done was illegal
and I think he’s testified that he got a call up because there had been a
directive for the child to be removed by order.
Judge Walker: That isn’t the way I understood his question. I understood it
more as how this gentleman would react given the situation he just
described. He can answer how he may react had he been in a similar
Charles: I can do that. I would probably be upset but I would comply.
Christian: Okay, now is it not in your instinct to protect the child?
Charles: It’s always in my instinct to protect any child.
Christian: Alright, so did my wife not comply?
Charles: Eventually she did, yeah.
Christian: So she did comply?
Christian: Okay. No further questions.
Hamlin: When did she comply?
Charles: After the lady that was assisting the DHR worker actually
took the child.
(THE LADY ASSISTING THE DHR WORKER TOOK THE CHILD?? You
mean, Rachel Israel, the child’s crime detective from the sheriff
department? You mean the woman, who under oath said she never
touched the child? You mean, the woman who is not allowed to take our
child unless there is IMMEDIATE EMERGENCY OR DANGER TO THE
CHILD? You mean the woman who said there was NO IMMEDIATE
DANGER OR EMERGENCY? That woman?? Thank you Haworth.)
Attorney: It wasn’t until after she had been requested a few times and…
Christian: One more question, your honor. And at those moments when
she wasn’t in compliance to those orders she was breastfeeding, right?
Charles: I can’t remember if she was breastfeeding….
Christian: It looked like she was breastfeeding.
Charles: It may have been.
Christian: And her child covered up.
Sascha Mike Schmid
Hamlin: And where are you employed?
Mike: Regional Medical Center
Hamlin: And what is your position?
Mike: I’m a senior security officer. Ten years. On October 11, we received
a call from post-partum saying they had a potential situation with a family,
and when we got up there we were given some information which turned
out later to be false but on that same day DHR took custody of the child.
****(false grounds for removal of child)
Hamlin: Without stating what information was given, was it concerning
Hamlin: And who gave you the information?
Mike: One of nurses from post partum.
Hamlin: So the information you received about them was from somebody
in your own organization?
Mike: Yes, sir.
Hamlin: Did you have any direct contact with the parents that night?
Mike: Afterwards, after DHR actually took custody of the child, I was
standing by and Mr. Holm was speaking with the investigator and DHR at
the nurse’s station. I did not directly speak to him but I could hear him.
Hamlin: And do you recall the nature of the conversation?
Mike: Mr. Holm was just upset because he didn’t understand why DHR
was taking custody of the child.
Attorney: Did he make any comment that would be considered threatening
toward the hospital or toward anyone else?
Mike: Not really comments. It was more of his tone?
****(So the answer to the question was no, he did not make any
threatening comments. Voice tone gets hospitals put on lock-down now?)
Hamlin: And what did you take from his tone?
Mike: I took from his tone that he was angry and upset, which under the
circumstances I could understand.
Attorney: Did it escalate any further than that?
Mike: No. Mr. Holms left peacefully that day.
****(Meaning all the charges against him for threatening violence were
false, IN SPITE of the violent and illegal action the hospital took against
Hamlin: All right, and was there an incident where that wing of the
hospital had to be shut down?
Mike: Because of the information, like I said that was given to us…uh…at
the time we didn’t know it was false information so as a safety precaution
we did lock down that unit for I believe it was about 24 hours. I could be
****(He sounds like an honest security guard)
Hamlin: Since that time have you had any other conversation with Mr.
Holm or Mrs. Holm?
Mike: I spoke to him Wednesday of last week.
Hamlin: And what brought about that conversation?
Mike: Mr. and Mrs. Holm came to the hospital wanting video of the night
that the child was taken into custody and I informed them that we couldn’t
just give them the video, that they would have to go through our risk
manager, Daniel Swindle, and make an appointment to see about getting
****(Risk management to keep the hospital from getting sued, right?)
(We called Mr. Daniel Swindle multiple times and have left messages and
have received no phone call back.)
Hamlin: Okay, and what if anything happened during that conversation?
Mike: Again, Mr. Holm seemed slightly irritated and he said something
to the effect of he has done his research on Chuck, and he knew that
Chuck worked with social services, and it was a plot and that everyone is
plotting against him to take away his child.
****(You would have to be mentally challenged to derive at any other
Hamlin: Did he say you were plotting against him?
Mike: Not me, necessarily. He was more focused on Chuck.
****(In other words, Christian was mentally normal. Paranoids accuse
everyone they come in contact with and without even knowing them.)
(FACT: The people involved in the kidnapping, have all become a part of
the kidnapping and they are all lying about their involvement in the
kidnapping and switching stories, working together to do so.. therefore,
showing it to be a conspiracy against us. The definition of conspiracy is: a
secret plan by a group to do something unlawful or harmful.)
Hamlin: What was his, I know you said he was slightly agitated…
****(Oh come on now. What part of slightly did you not understand Mr.
Attorney? Let’s stretch this for all the mileage we can possibly get.)
…but what was his actual demeanor at the time?
Mike: He was calm and he didn’t really make any threatening gestures or
say anything threatening. It was just his tone. You could tell he was really
****(Getting judged and condemned for secret body language again.
Which is it? You can’t have it both ways. He was either calm or not. I don’t
believe mind reading is allowed in court. This really is a great testimony
for how mentally stable and in control Christian remains throughout a
horrendous ordeal. Most people would be losing it and that is what they
were counting on.)
(And the truth here is that Christian WAS calm….Stacy Jackson, the DHR
worker, even went out of her way to tell Danielle it was DISTURBING to
her his reaction of how calm he was after our baby was removed.
Christian never changes. He is SLOW TO ANGER. He thinks about
things, he understands how people work. He doesn’t yell. He does not
cause violence. He is loving at all times, even when upset. He DOES
speak truth and he is blunt, but he never changes. He is always the same.)
Hamlin: So you didn’t suppose what he was there on was a threat?
Mike: It did concern me just because of the nature of what he said, yeah.
Even though the information may have been false that he was given but
the fact that he would actually go and try to research Chuck or anybody
else was a little concerning to me.
****(You mean like he was more intelligent than the average father who
gets their child taken on false assumptions, false assumptions being the
very words Mike testified of.)
(And it was not concerning to him that a nurse would actually go and try
and research Christian or Danielle to drum up a mistaken identity to steal
their child?? Why would ANY parent NOT research as much as possible
the entire situation, even the unseen when it comes to what happened to
destroy their family?)
Hamlin: What did you do with the information that he’d given to you?
Mike: As soon as Mr. and Mrs. Holm left the hospital, I informed Chuck
of the situation, and he informed his boss and other people.
Hamlin: So you turned it over to your supervisors?
Hamlin: Did he speaks of any conspiracy theory or anything like that..
Christian: Objection. He has already answered that.
Judge: I don’t recall him talking about any conspiracy theory. I recall him
talking about a plot. I’ll overrule it, but let’s keep it limited okay?
****(Here, your honor. A little dictionary help for you on the subject.)
NOUN 1. a plan made in secret by a group of people to do something
illegal or harmful:
“there’s a plot to overthrow the government”
synonyms: conspiracy · intrigue · secret plan · machinations
(AND, ironically, the definition for conspiracy!)
1. a secret plan by a group to do something unlawful or
2. “a conspiracy to destroy the government”
• plot, scheme, plan, machination, ploy,
trick, ruse, subterfuge;
• “a conspiracy to manipulate the results”
Mike: Like I said, what he had told me was that he has done his research
on Chuck and that Chuck used to work with social services, and that DHR
and everyone is plotting against him. He didn’t necessarily say conspiracy
theory but he did say plot.
****(They just get the same testimony restated twice and this provides
emphasis in the transcript. Later they can restate that Christian suffers
from delusions and they remain concerned about his mental status for the
safety of the baby.)
(No matter what we do here, they are PLOTTING in a CONSPIRACY to
KEEP our child, because of these reasons.)
Hamlin: Okay, did he ever state that he got any directives from anybody
on what to do or anything?
Mike: Not that I recall.
Christian: What info were you given about us?
Hamlin: Objection on hearsay.
Judge Walker: Oh, if we want to ask him what somebody told him and
waive the hearsay, then he is free to tell it. He’s opening the door. Go
Mike: We received information from post-partum nurse that googled youalls
names and found someone who resembles you and who also shared
the same name was being coyotes. They had smuggled people over the
borders, smuggled drugs.
Christian: Okay, What is this nurse’s name?
Mike: I don’t recall. Because the information wasn’t given directly to me.
****(How convenient. Mike is someone who has been on staff for ten
years and he doesn’t know the people on duty, the people he is directly
involved with on a professional basis.)
Christian: When did you realize that these two people were not us?
Mike: It was a couple weeks later when Chuck received information from
one of the investigators.
Christian: So, would you say that the reason why this incident happened
on this night is because this nurse made a call…
Hamlin: I object. Speculation on his part as to why the whole incident
Judge Walker: As far as the whole incident, you are talking about why the
child was picked up?
Hamlin: Yeah, that’s what it sounds like he is going after.
Christian: Would you say that this is the root problem of this situation?
Judge asks Christian for clarification:
Christian: Right, I’m meaning why because we are even here today is
because of why our child was even being taken.
Mike: I have no knowledge other than while been asked about your living
situation, and you informed whoever you talked to that you was living in a
tent. That was the reason why the child was taken into DHR custody.
That’s as far as what I know.
Christian: Okay. Are you married?
Christian: Okay, so do you have any children.
Christian: You don’t. If you did have children, and if you were in the same
situation, I don’t know if I can say it like this, would you not try and gather
as much information as you could about the situation?
Mike: I would. But also, unless something drastic happens I would try to
not put myself in a situation where I didn’t have a roof over my head and
family living in a tent.
(This was not the question we asked him. We were asking him about our
actions of gathering as much information as possible on those involved in
the kidnapping, not about our living situation.)
Christian: Okay, what was the evidence and/or proof that showed an
emergency to remove our child?
Hamlin: I object unless he has knowledge as to why the child was
removed, direct knowledge.
Mike: All I can tell you is the information we had was photos and news
articles of people who resembled you all..and that was why…
Judge Walker: That was to remove the child?
Mike: No, no. I asked why the lockdown was initially started. As far as
removal of the child…
Judge Walker: Let me, you are asking about removing the child, correct?
Christian: Yes, ma’am.
Judge: Can you address your answer to his question?
Hamlin: If you have knowledge. I object to unless you have direct
knowledge why that order was signed to remove the child…
Mike: I have no direct knowledge of that.
(But he just judged us for our living situation….how did he have direct
knowledge of that?)
****(Good point! You two are really good at this. It is almost as though
you were receiving help or something…)
Christian: Okay, and the lockdown was because of a statement that I
Mike: No. Cause at the time all we had was the information that was
found on-line by the nurse and concerning the nature that the coyotes and
drug smuggling and everything, we did feel concern to lock down the
hospital for the safety of everybody.
****(discrepancy in testimony between him and his boss’s previous
(Right, his boss said there were threats. Mike says because of the
information. Which is it?)
Christian: And that was shown to be false.
Hamlin: Even though the knowledge you got a couple weeks later turned
out to be non-conclusive or wasn’t then….the situation as it was was very
concerning to you at the time, was it not?
Hamlin: I meant to ask you about some paperwork, did you receive
Mike: Uh yes, Mr. Holm did hand a packet to Chuck. Not to me directly.
(So, in other words, NO he did not.)
Hamlin: Now, if the information would have turned out to be true, it
would have been a very serious thing.
Christian: One other question. Can you tell me what you alls procedure is
for when a woman comes in and gives delivery…about escorting them out?
How do you all take them from the bed and….what happens when they
have delivery and they are discharged? Could you explain that procedure
to me please?
Hamlin: Judge, I would object unless he is part of the discharge.
****(Of course you would because you don’t want to permit Christian to
prove the severe prejudice he and his family were treated to, now do you,
Judge Walker: If you’ve got knowledge about that you can testify, if you
don’t you don’t.
Mike: I don’t.
****(This is a lie. He has been there ten years. He has watched mothers
wheeled out with baby in lap. It is standard hospital procedure in every
hospital in the land and has been forever. It is in every movie anyone has
ever watched. He has seen it many times. Since he is now lying, one has to
(Protecting his boss and protecting the hospital and furthering the
destruction of our family.)
Christian: Okay, do you have any knowledge about a woman by the name
of Tammy Power coming into our delivery room the night that we came
Mike: No, there was no complaints made about that to us about that.
Christian: Okay. What is the procedure after hours for visitors coming into
Mike: Can you clarify that?
Christian: In the delivery room, what is the procedure for someone coming
into the room who is a non family member?
Mike: Generally if the patient wants them there, they can be there. If not,
we can escort them out.
(That was not our question, Mike. The question is, how does that visitor
even get into the hospital room?)
Christian: All right, now what if a paper is signed stating that the mother
and the father are to only be in the room?
Mike: If there is a signed statement, then we are supposed to be notified if
someone is in the room that is not supposed to be in the room. So we were
****(HIPAA violation and hospital malfeasance, malpractice, failure to
follow established protocol, prejudicial treatment against a patient.
Thanks Mike, for that.)
Christian: Okay, now after hours is the delivery rooms not locked down?
Christian: The doors?
Mike: The exterior doors are locked down and the main building you can
walk out but you can’t walk back in unless you are going through the ER.
Christian: So after hours you have to go in and report yourself to get in
behind the doors?
Mike: No. We no longer do the safe check.
Christian: No, not about the safe check. What I am trying to say is that
after hours you have to go through the front and get somebody to unlock
the door to then walk through the back…to the delivery room.
Mike: No. You talking about to leave? Or to come in?
Christian: To come in.
Mike: No, you can come in through the ER entrance and gain access to
labor and delivery.
Christian: So there is no sign in or anything?
Mike: No, there is no sign in or anything like that. Like I said if someone
is in the delivery room that the patient does not want there then the patient
can tell the nurse, and the nurse will call us, and we will escort them out.
****(They just admitted to a big security problem for their hospital)
Christian: Now the night when the incident happened and you stated that
you were off to the side and you saw me speaking to the investigator, did
you see me hand out three forms of identification?
Mike: I’m not sure if they were forms of identification per se but I did see
you hand out documentation.
Christian: Okay, like in the form of like an ID?
Mike: Yes, it was something about credit card size, yes.
Christian: Okay. And I wasn’t being violent at the time, was I?
Mike: Not violent, but you were visibly upset.
Christian: Very concerned, if you will. I looked very concerned?
Mike: I’d say more upset than concerned.
****(Can’t give him anything, can you Mike?)
Christian: Okay, could you give me the definition of upset, please?
Mike: Upset, your tone was irritated. You did not physically show any
signs of aggression but you could just tell your overall demeanor that you
were not happy, that you weren’t maybe your usual self.
****(Not like someone didn’t just seriously assault his wife and steal his
child. Christian, you were waaaay too controlled in the situation for what
most people would be. This poor guy can’t even lie that you were out of
control. You gave him nothing to work with. God knew you could be
trusted to be who you really are, amazing! You are also a great attorney
for someone who doesn’t know how to do this stuff.)
Christian: Did I ever yell?
Mike: Not that I’m aware of.
Christian: Okay, so I was just very concerned about the situation?
Ms. Miller: Just one question. When you had contact with the Holms last
week, is it your testimony that the contact that you had with them whether
that was threatening or not?
Mike: Are you talking about whenever they were asking for the video or
when they were making the accusations so to say for the plot?
Ms. Miller: When you had contact with them on Wednesday at any point
did you perceive that as threatening?
(Ms. Miller. Have you forgotten or lost sight of what exactly your “job”
is? Are you trying to reunite a family for the best interest of the child,
YOUR client…OUR baby, or are you trying to FIND reasons to make the
parents look threatening, unstable, mentally deranged to be able to be
justified in keeping our baby away from us and to keep YOUR CLIENT
away from his loving parents for no good reason? What EXACTLY is your
role Ms. Miller?)
Mike: Somewhat, yes.
Ms. Miller: Is that why I guess you reported that to your superior or did
you report that to your superior?
Mike: I did report it to my superior but the reason why I did report it to my
superior is with everything that has been going on, they had done been to
the hospital before wanting information and talked to our administration.
So I had wanted to keep my superior, who was Chuck, updated on the
situation just so he would know what was going on.
Ms. Miller: So prior to the delivery of the baby, Wednesday when you had
contact with them, the Holms had been to RMC another time.
Ms. Miller: Do you know when that was?
Mike: Uh…I don’t recall the exact date. I do know in my documentation
for work. I happen to have it written down. But, as of right now I couldn’t
give that information.
Ms. Miller: You had no contact on that date, I’m assuming.
Attorney: You said you have some documentation. Was there…if
somebody is not supposed to be there or has been asked to leave, do you
all get their names and all the people who is not supposed to be there or
requested not to come back?
Hamlin: Were they on any kind of list like that?
Mike: Not at that time but after they had left, after speaking with Elain
Davis ………….(Arter?) Chief nurse, we did put them on a BOLO.
(We go to the hospital, that is involved in the kidnapping of our baby and
the hospital that stopped treating me, as soon as they thought we were
criminals , falsely. The same hospital that apparently “googled”
Christians name to drum up a false accusation against him, and we want
to make a formal complaint. We stood and spoke with Elaine Davis for
about 10 minutes, with the door open and Mike standing right there
listening, and we were both as we always are…calm, respectful and telling
the truth. I cried telling what happened, because it is emotional each time
I tell it. ANd Christian spoke truth, and asked what can we do about this?
How can we move forward? We want to put in an official complaint. We
shook hands, left peacefully, another security guard who was there even
said he supported us….we walked out and got in our car and left. It was a
meeting, complaining of our treatment. WHY in the world was there a
BOLO put on us afterwards? And we DO have this meeting recorded as
Hamlin: Was this last Wednesday that they told you or the meeting prior to
Mike: The meeting prior to that.
Hamlin: So at that point in time there was like you say a BOLO. Define
that a little bit for me.
Mike: A BOLO is your standard be on the lookout, just because of them
coming to administration a few weeks earlier and they were upset again. I
am not sure exactly what transpired during that meeting. All I know is that
we were asked to come up to administration and stand by just in case
Hamlin: Was that common?
Mike: Yeah, we get several calls throughout the month for situations like
Christian: When we were up there speaking with your administration head
nurse, your nurse director, do you recall my wife’s treatment being treated
like a criminal after they had taken our child and also do you recall that?
Mike: No. What I recall is after you spoke to Ms Davis, you all left.
Christian:Do you recall that we stated to Ms. Davis she was allowed to
walk out without being wheelchaired out of the hospital?
Attorney: I’d like to know if he was actually present at this meeting or just
information second hand?
Mike: I was just standing outside the door. It was a closed door and I was
just standing outside the…
Christian: The door was open. Was the door open?
Mike: No, the door was closed.
Christian: The door was closed?
****(I’m gonna say he was lying)
(We have a recording of this meeting, in which Ms. Davis, quickly says
something to Mike, because he was standing right there listening to the
conversation, as the door was open. She asked him what security guard
was there that night and he answered, “Chuck”.)
Christian: Was there another gentleman there with you, another male?
Christian: Okay, can you state his name please?
Mike: His name was Kevin Palmoor.
(This was the security guard who stopped and said he supported us all the
Christian: Okay, and was the door open while he was there too?
Christian: It was closed while he was there too?
Christian: Okay, so from what you saw that night, from what you gathered
is that I came in and under concerns of trying to get the director to look
over the situation…
Mike: Which night are you pertaining to?
Christian: The night when I came to see the director, or the day when I
came to see the director…
Mike: Talking about last week or….
Christian: The day when you said the door was closed.
Mike: I wasn’t aware why you were there. I only knew that you’d come up
and that there was concerns from our administrative staff and that’s why
we got called up there. We were never told why other than you wanted to
make a formal complaint…why you were up there.
Ms. Miller: Are you aware or have you received any documents relating to
the Holms or has the hospital for the security office?
Mike: When you say documents, what…?
Ms. Miller: A letter or documents, anything of that nature?
Mike: Not to my knowledge, no.
Hamlin: Is it unusual for you to have this much trouble out of one person?
Mike: This is my first time, I’ve had…
Christian: Objection, your honor. I think that’s speculation as far as
Judge Walker: I’m gonna overrule it. I don’t think it’s speculation. I think
it’s a yes or no answer.
Mike: Yeah. I have been through situations like this before, yeah.