#8, #9, #10, #11, and #12 consolidated

Danielle’s comments are italicized and in parenthesis. Mine are preceded by asterisks and in parenthesis.

Tape 8, 9, 10, 11, and 12
Mr. Hamlin: State your name for the record please.
Christian: Christian Holm
Mr. Hamlin: What do you go by?
Christian: Christian
Attorney: Where do you live at?
Christian: I would like to invoke my right to plead the 5th.
Mr. Kirby: Come here. Can I have a side bar?
Judge: We are back on the record. If you will restate your question.
Hamlin: Yes. Where do you live at?
Christian: Okay, I would like to invoke my answer…to not answer. I have
no comment.
Hamlin: Judge, may I request that this witness be considered a hostile
witness for the purposes of this testimony?
Judge: I don’t know that he’s shown that he is hostile. He just says that he
doesn’t …
Attorney: Well what I’m talking about to, to the state that he is not going to
be a cooperative witness to the state.
Judge: Go a little further and see.
Attorney: We’d like that you’d direct this witness to answer our questions
toward to where he lives.
Judge: Mr. Holm, what is your basis for not wanting to reveal to the state
your address?
Christian: We have not been given any proper reasonings of why we are
here today to justify me answering…to tell anybody where we live. It’s not
of anybody’s business and I think this…
Attorney: I don’t think that’s a proper response him not wanting to inform
the department of the address as far as what they’ve been given. What
they’ve been given at least a copy of one, if not two, orders as to why we
are here today.
Judge: Mr. Holm, you need to give um…it’s a standard question of what
your residence or your address is and I see no reason as to why you would
not be able to answer that question.
Christian: So is there no way that I can invoke my amendment rights of
anything to not answer?
Mr. Kirby: Can we side bar with the judge?
Judge: On the record or off?
Mr. Kirby: Off record.
Christian: Everybody?
Mr. Kirby: No.
****(But, but, but… isn’t Christian the pro se attorney for the case? How
come he can’t be there? Or Danielle? Guess they weren’t expecting you to
take the 5th.)
Mr. Hamlin: Why would you prefer not to give your address?
Christian: Because you all have not presented any probable cause of why
we are here today as far as a need to have to give that to you.
Mr. Hamlin: What would I need to have to present to you to be able to get
that, to get that information out of you?When you say probable cause,
what would I have to state to you to get that or show you to get that
information?
Christian: The law is put in place to benefit both sides of the law. I have
not broken any laws here.
Judge Melody Walker: Before we go any further, Mr. Hamlin, based on the
few answers that Mr. Holm has given, and I certainly understand his point
in it, given the state’s request to treat him as a hostile witness…now that
doesn’t mean that you are acting out or anything…it just means that you
are not as forthcoming and it will allow to some latitude the state to treat
Mr. Holm as a hostile witness.
Mr. Hamlin: Thank you, your honor.
Christian: Could you please emphasize on what that means?
Judge Walker: Go ahead, Mr. Kirby.
Mr. Kirby: It means that they can ask you leading questions, okay? Instead
of just who, what, when, and where, they can lead up to events and ask
you questions, okay?
Christian: Okay.
Judge Walker: It doesn’t mean that you are acting out or being
disrespectful, cause most people think hostile they think well I’m doing
something wrong.
Christian: Are you protecting my rights?
Judge Walker: Mr. Kirby is, yes.
Mr. Hamlin: What do you live in?
(We already have testified to a camper. And we had already shown proof
of residency at the shelter hearing 2 months previous to this. These
comments in parenthesis and italics are by Danielle)
Christian: I have no comment.
Mr. Hamlin: Do you live in the state of Alabama still?
(They already know we do. We had been given gas vouchers from DHR
and we have to tell them how many miles we travel so we tell them, what
town we are in and about where, without giving them an address that they
can come harass as at.)
Christian: I have no comment.
Mr. Hamlin: How did you get up to Cheaha mountain?
(Already testified to this at shelter hearing. We walked.)
Christian: I have no comment.
Mr. Hamlin: Is every answer you are going to give no comment?
Christian: I have not broken the law, so, yes.
Mr. Hamlin: So if I ask you if you were present at the hospital the night
your son was taken…
Christian: That would be speculation for any reasons because I have not
broken any law.
Mr. Hamlin: No, I said were you present at the hospital the night your son
was taken?
Christian: What I am trying to say is I haven’t broken any laws so it
doesn’t really matter.
Mr. Hamlin: Have you ever broken any laws?
Christian: No comment.
Kirby: I’m gonna advise him not to answer that question.
Mr. Hamlin: Are you married?
Christian: No comment.
Mr. Hamlin: So Danielle Holm is not your wife?
Christian: I don’t have any comment.
Mr. Hamlin: Do you have any children?
Christian: No comment.
Mr. Hamlin: Do you know what you are saying affects the outcome of this
trial?
Christian: I know that I have not broken any laws.
Mr. Hamlin: Do you not wish to visit your child?
(Obviously he does.)
Christian: I have no comment.
Mr. Hamlin: Do you not have any desire to know how your child is doing?
(Obviously he does. Visits were taken away from US for 5 weeks, and at
this point we were still unable to see him. This was a devastating process
for us and he was sickly twisting the knife with these questions knowing
THEY took visits away, not us, after kidnapping him. And my milk dried
up.)
Christian: I invoke my right to not comment as I have broken no laws.
Mr. Hamlin: Where did you live at before you moved to Alabama?
(We never moved to Alabama. We were traveling through. We were
traveling the country.)
Christian: I have no comment.
Attorney: Did you leave your vehicle in Montgomery and walk to Cheaha
mountain?
(We have answered this over and over again.)
Christian: I have no comment.
Attorney: Were you and your wife camping on Cheaha mountain when she
went into labor?
(Yes, once again.)
Christian: I have no comment.
Attorney: Do you know if the hospital called anyone with concerns about
you and your wife?
(The hospital was one of the few that called with “concerns”, also the
state park superintendent.)
Christian: I don’t have any comment.
Attorney: Do you know why DHR went to the hospital and removed your
child?
(The REAL reason? Because we are in a human trafficking ring and they
thought we were an easy target.)
Christian: I invoke my right to not answer.
Attorney: Did you ever visit with your child at DHR?
(Obviously.)
Christian: No comment.
Attorney: Were you present at a prior hearing concerning the custody of
your child? (Yes, obviously.)
Christian: No comment.
Attorney: Did you attend an ISP after that hearing laying out certain things
that would be required of you and your wife?
(Yes, under duress.)
Christian: I don’t have any comment.
Attorney: Have you followed any of the steps in the ISP that would help
ensure reunification between your child and you and your wife?
(At first, yes we did, until we realized they were not going to give him back
anyway.)
Christian: I have broken no laws.
Attorney: Did you start a psychological examination at the request of the
Department of Human Resources?
(Yes, we did until we realized it went against every right and our religious
beliefs. Psych exams are sorcery to us.)
****Good point. Sorcery is against religious beliefs.
Christian: I have broken no laws.
Attorney: And were you at one time visiting with your child and
voluntarily stop visiting with your child?
(Absolutely not, and the recording of our visits being taken away by Leslie
Smith is now out in the world and documented by us, and witnessed by a
police officer, Ross McGlaughn AND Scott Winslet.)
Christian: I have broken no laws.
Attorney: And have you since become uncooperative with DHR?
(We stopped answering to them, because they are not playing fair.)
Christian: I have broken no laws.
Attorney: Will you turn over your address?
(Should anyone turn over their address to criminals?)
Christian: I have broken no laws to do such.
Attorney: Will you do anything that is requesting of you by DHR or
ordered to you by this court?
(No, because they are criminal kidnappers that had no right to break their
own laws against us.)
Christian: I have broken no laws. The kidnappers are asking me for
questions. I demand my child back today.
Attorney: So, the kidnappers being whom?
Christian:The kidnappers being anyone who is holding our child.
Attorney: So anybody in this situation would be considered the
kidnappers?
Christian: I have no comment.
Attorney: For someone who has no comment you sure have been putting
out a lot of publications lately now haven’t you?
Christian: I have no comment.
Attorney: Did you send out a letter? Would it bother you if I come up
there? Would it bother you if I show you this piece of paper?
Christian: Sure.
Attorney: May I approach you?
Danielle: Sure.
Judge: The state too?
Attorney: Yes. Do you mind taking a look at this piece of paper? This
papers? In looking at that, is that something you are the author of?
(This is in reference to a notice of recourse letter we mailed out to all
involved stating if they did not return our child immediately there would
be legal recourse by us.)
Christian: I have no comment.
Attorney; So you are saying you are not the author of it?
Christian: I am saying I have no comment.
Attorney: So you are not denying you are the author of it?
Christian: I’m saying I have no comment.
Attorney: Would you take a second and mind reading that last page, the
signatures on the back page? Do you have any idea who signed that?
Christian: I don’t have any comment.
Attorney: Would you agree that it says Christian Holm and Danielle
Holm?
Christian: I can agree that I have broken no laws and I have no comment.
Attorney: But you won’t agree to being the author of this even though you
signed it?
Christian: I don’t have any comment.
Attorney: You did sign it, didn’t you?
Christian: I have no reason to comment. I have no comment. I am not
commenting.
Attorney: Did your wife sign this?
Christian: I have no comment.
Attorney: I would ask that this be admitted as state’s…
Danielle: Objection
Judge: What’s your objection, ma’am?
Danielle: It’s not properly authenticated.
Mr. Hamlin: We got a witness that won’t authenticate it. He won’t
comment on it. There is no way right now for me to authenticate it. He has
not denied it so I think it comes in under that. He has not said he didn’t do
it. He has not said that it was not his signature. He just says no comment.
So I don’t think not denying it is the same as admitting to it in this
situation.
Judge Walker: I’m going to admit it.
Mr. Hamlin: Thank you, your honor.
Mr. Hamlin: Can I approach again, your honor? Mind if I show you
another? Do you mind looking at that? I’m marking this as state’s three.
Uh…are you the author of this?
(It’s letter number 2. In order for it to be valid in the supreme courts for
lawsuits, in this state you need to mail out at least 2. We mailed out 3, with
a period of 10 days in between all, to give them time to respond-which
they never did)
Christian: I have no comment.
Attorney: Is that your signatures on the front page?
Christian: I have no comment.
Attorney: Did you see the signatures on the front page?
Christian: I don’t have any comment.
Attorney: So are you denying that you are the author of that?
Christian: I have not broken any laws and I have no comment.
Attorney: You are not denying you are the author of that?
Christian: I have no comment.
Attorney: Judge, again, I would like to offer this as state’s three.
Danielle: Objection
Judge: I’m going to allow it to be admitted and subject to cross
examination. By admission it certainly does not mean that Mr. and Mrs.
Holm may or may not be the author of that.
Attorney: Do you deny being the author of any of those documents?
Christian: I haven’t broke any laws and I deny answering you.
Attorney: Okay, but you don’t deny being the author of those documents?
Christian: I don’t have any comment.
Attorney: Do you expect the court just to turn your child over to you
today?
Christian: I demand my child back.
Attorney: So you do demand your child back today?
Christian: I think that our child should be returned today.
Attorney: Why is that?
Christian: Because you all….We have not broken any laws.
Attorney: That’s all. That’s the only thing you’ve got to say?
Christian: That’s it.
Attorney: Okay. Have you ever had any mental health treatment?
Christian: I have no comment.
Attorney: Have you ever been diagnosed with mental illness?
Christian: I have no comment.
Attorney: Do you receive a Social Security check?
Christian: I don’t have any comment.
Attorney: Did you previously testify that you received a check?
Christian: I don’t have any comment.
Attorney: Did you previously testify you had a mental illness?
Christian: I have no comment.
Attorney: Fact is you used to be, and I think you testified to being treated
by Savannah Counseling didn’t you?
Christian: I haven’t broken any laws. I don’t have any comment.
Attorney: And that counseling had diagnosed you and you testified at an
earlier hearing that I think you had commented on ADHD, attention deficit
disorder, and delusional disorder. ****(That’s a lie!)
(He never testified to anything other than depression and ADD.)
Christian: I have no comment.
Attorney: And that diagnosis came from Savannah Counseling, didn’t it?
Christian: I have no comment.
Attorney: And since then you have been diagnosed with schizophrenia,
haven’t you? ****(Another lie!)
(Right, only depression and ADD. and Since the last records THEY have
seen, we have even newer records that show mild depression (its more of
a chronic fatigue than a mental state, and ADD…his focus is worse than
a squirrel.)
Christian: I haven’t broken any laws and I have no comment.
Attorney: And I think that you testified that your social security check was
based on your mental illness.
Christian: I have no comment.
Attorney: If your testimony only showed the ADHD, you failed to disclose
the delusional disorder and schizophrenia, didn’t you?
(NOT TRUE!)
****(This was so not true and I knew it immediately. I got so mad typing
it, I took a break and then forgot to notate I believed it was a lie. This is
tantamount to saying, “You failed to disclose you beat your wife whenever
you get drunk, didn’t you? None of it is true.)
Christian: I have no comment.
Attorney: Judge?
Judge: Yes, sir?
Attorney: In lieu of the testimony, can I have about five minutes with cocounsel?
Judge: You need a break for five minutes?
Attorney: Yes, I do.
Judge: Okay
Tape 11
Attorney: Would you mind looking at this piece of paper? It’s marked
state’s exhibit 4. This is a release to Savannah Counseling for counseling
records, isn’t it?
Christian: I have no comment.
Attorney: You don’t deny it is a release?
Christian: I have no comment.
Attorney: We would like to admit this as State’s 4 now. I want to get you to
look at this right here. That front page is consent, excuse me, authenticity
certificate from Savannah Counseling. Can you flip through and…..? Do
you recognize any of that as your records?
(Christian did see these records after the fact and they are not all there,
therefore they are not valid. He believes the lawyers got these illegally
from Christian’s family. Christian went there for at least 5 or 6 years,
and only about 2 years worth of records are there. He saw multiple
doctors there.
ANYTIME CHRISTIAN NEEDS RECORDS FROM THERE FOR
SOMEONE, THIS PLACE NEVER GIVES THEM OUT….
ALSO, the “CONSENT” form CHRISTIAN FILLED OUT FOR DHR
WAS NOT EVEN A PROPER HIPPA RELEASE…according to Mr.
Kirby. And after, this court date, all permissions have been revoked for
any and all HIPPA releases of information, which is why this current
judge is trying to FORCE us to sign HIPPA, because they ended up
getting these false records in the record anyway.)
Christian: I don’t have any comment.
Attorney: Do you deny treatment through Savannah Counseling?
Christian: I have broken no laws and I deny answering you because I don’t
have any comment.
Attorney: Have you ever had…so you are not denying that you have been
diagnosed with a mental illness through Savannah Counseling, have you?
Christian: I have no comment.
Attorney: You don’t deny seeing a therapist at Savannah Counseling, do
you?
Christian: Christian: I have no comment.
Attorney: You don’t deny with being diagnosed with ADHD or ADD?
Attention deficit disorder do you?
(It’s ADD.)
Christian: I haven’t broken any laws. I don’t have any comment.
Attorney: You don’t deny being diagnosed with a delusional disorder,
do you?
(He has only been truly diagnosed with ADD and depression in the past.
Anything else, if anything he would not even know about. That is all he
has been even TREATED for. The medications he WAS on…wellbutrin
and adderall were for his 2 diagnoses of depression and ADD. That is
NOT a concoction that you give to a patient with delusions and
schizophrenia. That would be very dangerous.)
Christian: I haven’t broken any laws. I don’t have any comment.
Attorney: You don’t deny being diagnosed with schizophrenia, do
you?
****(He also doesn’t deny having to sit and listen to a child trafficker
torture him either and in front of an American judge in an American secret
courtroom while lies are told about him and his child remains in the hands
of kidnappers. I will never regard lawyers the same way again. I was so
foolish to believe in our system before this, but with my own ears I hear
their lies and collusion and I will never think the same.)
(He has denied this many other times, to DHR and in motions, etc…)
Christian: I haven’t broken any laws and I don’t have any comment.
Mr. Hamlin: You don’t object to those records being entered into evidence
then, do you?
Christian: I have no comment.
Mr. Kirby: Judge, I’m going to object to the admission of these records.
While they do have a certificate of authenticity, there has been no
predicate laid as to any of these medical examiners or the part of these
records, uh…if they created these records, when they created these records,
and what they were doing…
Mr. Hamlin: ….to the records that’s not a problem.
Mr. Kirby: I don’t think Mr. Hamlin can testify as to the records…
Mr. Hamlin: I don’t think he is going to deny them, what’s contained in
these records. He had a chance to look at them and comment on them. He
didn’t deny that these are the records. This is an authenticity certification
of these records from the mental health, so…
Mr. Kirby: Not notarized. I didn’t see it was notarized. It’s signed. It’s not
notarized.
Christian: I object to the validity of that note.
Judge Melody Walker: What do the statutes say on this?
Mr. Kirby: I don’t think you just willy-nilly give him records.
Mr. Hamlin: Not willy-nilly. He is not denying that these are his records.
He is not denying that these were his medical records.
Mr. Kirby: Maybe if Mr. Hamlin had somebody from Savannah
Counseling here to testify as to what those records contained it would be a
difference.
Mr. Hamlin: I don’t have any way to subpoena. They are out of state
medical personnel. They do not have to honor our subpoenas. If they were
ever denied that would be one thing but he has already admitted on the
record in a past hearing that he was diagnosed and received a check as a
mental disorder.
(He never testified that he was diagnosed with DELUSIONAL DISORDER
AND SCHIZOPHRENIA. He specifically said, DEPRESSION and
ADD….he NEVER testified that he received disability for delusional
disorder and schizophrenia. They are creating a fantastical picture of him
that is completely false. )
****(They need this diagnosis due to the fact that their case has fallen
apart and they have nothing else. It appears they will stop at nothing in
“the interests of the state”. That means they must force one or both of you
to break, thereby justifying their intervention on behalf of the child’s
protection. They are capable of doing much worse if what they have
already done is any indication. Your continued stability remains a threat.
Following their present course of action, they will continue to twist every
word and action they observe from you. I am so sorry. This is my country,
but when and how was it taken over by ruthless and evil men and
women?)
Christian: Under duress, your honor.
Mr. Hamlin: We have gotten the records with this certificate of
authenticity. I tried to verify to certify the record by asking him did he see
the record? Did he deny these are his medical records?
Christian: We were under duress.
Mr. Hamlin: He has no comment. There was no comment. He never
denied the authenticity…uh….I lost my train of thought now…that these
were his records. I can go on through and we can uh…I can ask you page
by page of Christian Holms, and he is going to say no comment.
Judge Walker: Okay, the authenticity certification says on the bottom of it,
I certify and affirm on the 2nd day of December , and Mr. Kirby’s concern
is that it may be certified and affirmed but not affirmed in front of a
notary. What does the statute say on that?
Mr. Kirby: It says it can come by affidavit or sworn testimony.
Attorney: That’s not an affidavit or sworn testimony.
Christian: It says it has to be certified by a stamp….
Attorney: Witness… not testify from the stand, that’s true…
Mr. Kirby: The original or due credit of record of activity that would be
admissible on rule 8036 if accompanied by an affidavit or sworn
testimony————qualified persons certified that the record is made at or
near the time of occurrence of the matter set forth by and for information
transmitted by a person with knowledge of those matters was kept on the
regular course of business and was made by the regular conducted activity
as a regular practice.
Judge Walker: Your records don’t have the right certification. At this point
I cannot admit them. We will hold them, though, with the regular exhibits
so I don’t lose my count if that is okay?
*****THE RECORDS THEY SO DESPERATELY WANT TO USE
ARE DEEMED INADMISSIBLE AT THIS POINT.***** MEANING
CANNOT BE USED AT ALL. KEEP THIS IN MIND FOR LATER
WHEN THEY ILLEGALLY GET THEM IN BECAUSE THEY HAVE
NOTHING ELSE.
Mr. Hamlin: I’m going to backtrack a little bit Mr. Holm and make sure I
get all my questions in. Did you and your wife walk from Montgomery to
Cheaha Mountain?
Christian: I respect you but I have not broken any laws and I have no
comment.
Mr. Hamlin: And did you all leave a working vehicle in a storage unit in
Montgomery?
Christian: We haven’t broken any laws. I don’t have any comment.
Mr. Hamlin: And did you ultimately arrive on Cheaha Mountain to camp
out and have your child?
Christian: I don’t have any comment.
Mr. Hamlin: At some point in time was she transported by rescue
ambulance service or rescue squad to RMC Hospital?
Christian: I don’t have any comment.
Attorney: At the time you were camping upon Cheaha Mountain the only
items you had were two changes of clothing for each other, a couple of
onesies and a blanket for the baby?
(False. Yes, we did only have a couple of changes of clothes for US and
the rest in the car), BUT, we had an entire backpack full of clothes, good
enough for 2 weeks for a baby, diapers, wipes, onsies, booties, hats,
receiving blankets, and a wrap to carry him in against me. The rest of
what we had was in our car, parked in storage. It was ALSO testified by
Stefanie Riggs in the shelter hearing that SHE donated multiple items
BEFORE we gave birth, so how can she donate and also we have
nothing? Either way we were more than prepared before hand and even
more so afterwards. What do other people do in emergency situations?
What do people do if they have preemies? Also, it was testified by ME, on
the stand at the shelter hearing that I went to prenatal classes in Arizona
on our travels, called New Beginnings where for every class I went to, I
would receive points in order to get baby items, diapers, etc…our car was
FULL of baby stuff FROM NEW BEGINNINGS!
****They had that testimony on record yet persisted in pushing the false
narrative in trying to prove neglect. Again, another example of the state
willing to lie perpetually in order to defend state’s best interest.
Christian: Show me the laws that I have broke and I’ll answer. I have no
comment.
Attorney: Prior to camping on Cheaha, you all had been camping pretty
much traveling the earth living out of your tent. Is that correct?
Christian: We demand the laws that we have broken. I have no comment.
Attorney: The only source of income I think you testified to was your
disability check.
(But yet, they said how we “got by” by “handouts” from others only….)
Christian: I don’t have any comment.
Attorney: Kinda making sure I catch all my questions. When you were at
the hospital, I think I asked you about, that the hospital became concerned
and called somebody about some information they had received off the
internet thinking you all were someone else…
Christian: I don’t have any comment.
Attorney: You had in fact been….
Mr. Schlenker Your honor, ——————–real quick, something just
dawned on me.
Tape 12
Judge: Okay, we are back on the record but we are technically in a recess
or sidebar. Mr. Kirby has correctly pointed out to us Mr. and Mrs. Holm
that you are actually indeed pro se litigants and he is just standby counsel,
and you do have a right to be involved in these discussions.
Mr. Schlenker: And your honor, I just want to be clear that we are treating
this as ———-asserting his 5th amendment right because otherwise it just
dawned on me that the department would have to seek the court to compel
him to answer every question because if he’s asserting his 5th amendment
right the court is welcome to make whatever inference it wants, but if not
this is a civil matter. He does not have a right to answer questions and we
will be forced to seek him to be ordered each and every time if he refuses
to do so.
Christian: You need to show us where we have broken the law to order us
to do anything.
Mr. Kirby: I don’t know of anything. I mean if he wants I can re ask all of
those questions and assert the 5th amendment right not to testify. I don’t
know of anything that could compel him to testify, especially answers
involving testimony that might hurt him in some way.
Judge: And I’m assuming you are talking about the part of that these two
letters that are here and also other things. I think certainly one has the right
to invoke their 5th amendment right if they feel like the answer they will
give will lead to issues with criminal prosecution.
Christian: We would like to invoke the 5th amendment right because we
have not broken any laws.
Judge: Okay, you can’t invoke that for your wife but I’m sure at the proper
time she will do that, okay? So, I guess basically what you are asking, Mr.
Schlenker, is that…
Mr. Schlenker: Each prior answer would be construed as, and he can
perhaps clear this up by saying that each answer before he was asserting
his 5th amendment right. I know it’s not the cleanest for the purposes of the
record but I think it does at least then put us in a position where afterwards
we are not forced to seek absolute compulsion with every answer, because
at that point and time. I mean, even if the court was willing to compel him
to, the court could go to the extreme with having to incarcerate him for not
answering questions but that is not what we are seeking. But again, I do
not want the state prejudice based on the fact that he refuses to answer a
question, and under the 5th amendment we certainly are not prejudice by it
because it is a civil matter. But if he is going to have no consequence for
his not answering a question, then again I think the state is being
prejudiced by his refusal to answer a question.
Judge: Well, the very first question you asked him, he asserted his 5th
amendment, though I’ve sort of run with that is what he is continuing to
assert. It’s concerning that he is asserting what I’d think would be his 5th by
saying no comment because he has said I’m taking the 5th, no comment, no
comment, no comment rather than saying I assert the 5th, I assert the 5th, I
assert the 5th. And Mr. Holm, please correct me if that is not what you
intended. So that’s the way I have been taking it.
Mr. Schlenker: And I just wanted to be sure we were clear about that on
the record, if that is the fact the way the court is receiving it and that is the
fact of Mr. Holms intent I am satisfied with that. Again, I just want to
make sure that the state’s interests are protected.
Judge Walker: And that again, that’s my recollection. As a matter of fact I
wrote down where do you live and wrote 5th beside it because I was
prepared to write down an address in my notes. And Mr. Holms do you
indeed want to talk to Mr. Kirby before you answer that?
Christian: I think it’s as simple as I haven’t broken any laws and my rights
are to not answer if you all can’t prove that we’ve broken any laws in the
first place.
Attorney: So from the onset of the questioning you just want to invoke
your 5th amendment?
Christian: Yes.
Mr. Schlenker: Judge, I apologize for this late coming to you but based
upon the way the answers were being given it started worrying me, and I
just wanted to be sure we were clear for that, so I apologize.
Judge Walker: That’s fine.
Mr. Hamlin: And I believe I was at the point…I think my last question was
something like you and your wife had been camping out along the way to
Cheaha Mountain. I think I had asked you if you left your car in
Montgomery and had camped, walked, traveled to Cheaha Mountain. Is
that correct?
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Attorney: And you went up to Cheaha Mountain to have your baby as
naturalists.
(They keep flipping the titles on us. One moment we are creationists and
the next we are naturalists. We never claimed either. )
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Attorney: And you also spoke of yourselves as minimalists.
(No, we did not. Again, flipping the titles on us again. Why can’t we just
walk in the name of Yeshua and continue on with love?)
****I would guess Jesus’ name in any language is not one he wants on the
court record. The last time Jesus was tried in court, it didn’t turn out well
for the prosecution.
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Attorney: Isn’t it true that as the time your baby was born you had nothing
but a couple of onesies and a blanket for your child?
(No, that’s not true, and it had already been testified on the stand of what
we did have in our travel bag as well as our car in Montgomery. Also, it
was testified by Stefanie Riggs as well that we had donations BEFORE
birth, and after. Therefore having an abundance of what was needed. )
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Attorney: Is it true that at the hospital there was a knife and two cans of
pepper spray either in your room or in your belongings?
(A 4-inch blade buck knife for cutting fruits and vegetables and 2 separate
bottles of pepper spray for protection while camping since we would
rather spray than kill if in danger. All not illegal, and all bought on
Amazon. And yes, the knife was on Christian’s belt and the pepper spray
bottles were in the bottom of a travel bag where all of the baby stuff was.
When the ambulance came, we were not thinking of these items, as we
were only thinking about the baby stuff in the bag, and grabbing it and
getting into the ambulance. The child crime’s detective searched through
this bag, having to get past the baby items to get to the bottom of the bag
where the pepper spray was located. It was testified there were no baby
items in the hospital, therefore another lie.)
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Mr. Hamlin: Isn’t it true that at the hospital that the behavior between you
and your wife surrounding the pickup caused the hospital to shut down,
the maternity wing of the hospital?
****(This is a lie and is refuted by testimony provided by the security
guard who was telling the truth when he said it was done just as a
precaution.)
After they took Christian out of the room and then stole the baby off of
Danielle, Stacy Jackson the social worker sat with Danielle and said to
her, “we just removed your child and your husband is in the other room,
and he is VERY calm, and that is concerning to me, because that is not
the proper reaction after having your child removed”. She then
proceeded to ask me if Christian heard voices, had hallucinations, etc…I
said absolutely not. She was already trying to paint a picture of crazy at
this point…as Christian was in the other room, calmly speaking to the
police and speaking to God within, asking him to keep him calm.
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Mr. Hamlin: Isn’t it true that statements made by you and your wife calling
people satan or lucifer or the devil was in this or they didn’t know who
they were taking when they were taking this child, revelations about what
God had sent you, that comments about your grandfather working for the
government and he had tampered with your ID–All that was made by you
and your wife to the workers and the police at the time? Correct?
(When Rachel Israel took the baby off of Danielle, Danielle looked into
her eyes and said, “all I see is the devil right now. This is absolutely evil”.
In the other room Christian told them “the devil is prevalent here right
now” . We also said our baby was a child of God, given to us BY God, and
that they had no right to take a child of God. Stacy Jackson asked
Danielle why she thought Christian’s ID would come back as “not on
file”….Danielle said, “I have no idea, but all I can think about is that
Christian’s grandfather may have had something to do with that, because
he received high level security clearance and he may have erased his ID
in the system or something because he has done similar things in the past.
(He took his fingerprints out of a police station before with a simple phone
call).
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Attorney: You were present when Detective Israel testified weren’t you?
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Attorney: She testified that there was a knife and pepper spray in plain site
in the hospital room, right?
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Attorney: And that you are not disputing any of the testimony the prior
witnesses had commented about you, are you?
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Attorney: And after the child went into care we had a shelter care hearing.
You were present and testified, correct?
Christian Under duress.
Attorney: Explain duress.
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Attorney: So you want to claim duress but you want to invoke your 5th
amendment?
Christian: I want to invoke my 5th amendment, yes.
Attorney: Then I ask if he is going to invoke his 5th amendment his duress
be stricken.
****(This is a great example right here to show the unsuspecting public
the truth of the matter that anything you say can and WILL be used
against you. This attorney is extremely hostile to the Holms, as if they
actually had broken laws, and as if they actually were enemies of the
state. People need to see this to realize that every citizen in America will
be viewed in this manner and no attempt will be made to prove the
innocence of anyone, just confirm guilt. Five or six decades ago all
school children were taught how the legal system operated in Russia.
However, this is exactly how is is done here. I wonder in what years the
change came? I imagine it was gradual.)
(Exactly!)
Judge Walker: I don’t think that’s applicable. I would think he just answers
I was under duress and say he was under duress at the hearing. It is what it
is and I can infer what I want to from the remainder of it.
****(Apparently, this procedure they are doing is giving the judge
permission to infer anything she wants from your invoking the 5th
amendment. This is another clue by what she is saying right here. They get
to win in their case against you if you do make statements because they
twist and lie regarding your answers and they act in sync, and they get to
win if you don’t make statements. Looks like it is all set up for them to win.
Why do they even bother with a trial? Oh yeah, I forgot. To get those
federal dollars, that’s why.)
(Yes, they did say that even if we do not answer, she can infer our answers
however she sees fit.)
Mr. Hamlin: Did your wife testify subsequently at the first hearing?
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment.
Attorney: And after that DHR had a meeting and there was steps laid out
for your wife and you to all have visitations with the child, correct?
(Yes, and we did every single one of their “steps”, until we started
realizing this is a rigged game that they were trying to trap us in. This
entire thing was planned since BEFORE giving birth, and it was a trap we
never should have fallen into to begin with. And then they took visits away
from us as punishment for 5 weeks anyway.)
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Mr. Hamlin: And at that first hearing I think it was made clear that
juvenile cases are confidential and that a particular order was put into
place, the gag orders, so that nothing could be said outside the court about
the proceedings.
****(Except of course everybody who seemed to have been sitting in these
hearings and felt the need to comment on the Holm’s facebook page
continuously showing their full knowledge of everything said in these
confidential proceedings. They reamed them further, taking off on
everything testified in confidence by the state. They all said similar things,
supposedly being different people, and had uncanny knowledge of the
secret testimony they were each commenting on. It was an amazing
mystery to behold and I believe those comments are still buried
somewhere in the early days of the facebook postings if someone wants to
search. Anyway, it took awhile for Christian and Danielle to decide that if
everyone else was going to state one side of the courtroom fiasco
(something they were getting used to by now from their experiences in
front of the judge) that they might just give their version of the truth of
what actually happened. Gag orders apparently don’t apply to the state,
only their victims.)
(ALSO, this “gag order” clearly states that it is to protect the IDENTITY
of the child. Which is why he has no name as of yet, for HIS
PROTECTION. We are trying to protect him with not yet naming him.)
****(I actually guessed as much, Danielle. I never asked you about why
you were not naming him, but it is obvious that you can’t refer to a baby
that is not named. Pretty smart on your part. Everything in court is a
technicality.)
Mr. Hamlin: And you started with the visitation from the ISP from the
DHR, correct?
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment.
Mr. Hamlin: Is it true that you actually met with the person doing the
psychological and you decided you wanted to get your own?
(It is true, that we actually went to the psychological that THEY scheduled
for us and realized that she is part of the rigged plan and right off the bat
she was trying to tell Danielle to separate from Christian in order to gain
custody back QUICKER, and to live separately from each other, as a
“suggestion”. She twisted words against Danielle and Danielle had to
keep correction her saying, “no, that is not what I said”. This was NOT
an unbiased, professional psychologist. This was a paid operative of
DHR. And paid she was. They pay each of their psychological “service
providers” $800 per person for these evaluations.)
Danielle: Objection. Ask and answer.
Mr. Hamlin: Okay. I didn’t know which ones I missed so…and you never
actually got a separate counselor to do the psychological?
Danielle: Ask and answer.
Judge Walker: Now I don’t recall that question about a separate counselor
being asked. I just recall about the psychological evaluation.
Mr. Hamlin: You actually stated that you were going to get your own
psychological counselor and finish up the psychological, but you never
did, did you?
(No, because we started realizing this is a game to them, and there is no
need for a psychological when we do not have psychological problems we
are dealing with. We had never done anything wrong to begin with, they
broke laws and violated their own policies to steal our child. We are being
treated like animals and we are not going to bow down and submit to
THEM. Psychology is sorcery, which is why I, Danielle, got out of it, after
getting a degree in it and working as a mental health worker with children
and adolescents for a little while. It completely takes God out of the
equation, and violates and offends our spiritual beliefs, and we have every
right to not have evaluations done on our own minds that have never been
questioned in the past. Yes, Christian was officially diagnosed with
depression and ADD, but has has been treated in the past and has found
alternative ways to treat, with diet and exercise, and being out in nature,
hiking, biking, etc… Danielle has never been diagnosed with anything.)
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Mr. Hamlin: That at some point you came in and informed DHR that you
all were no longer going to visit with your child?
****(I’m going to say this is a big NO!)
(LISTEN TO AUDIO OF LESLIE SMITH TAKING AWAY OUR VISITS.
AFTER THIS AUDIO IS WHEN SHE STARTED CLAIMING WE
STOPPED VISITS and NOT HER. This is even in a motion saying that on
November 14th we called saying we did not want to see our baby
anymore, when the audio we have recorded and have also witnessed by a
police officer who was there, shows the visits were stopped as punishment
on November 16 BY the supervisor at DHR.)
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Attorney: You refused to give DHR your address?
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Judge Walker: Now, Mr. Hamlin, while you are phrasing these more as
statements I am assuming they are questions. You are just sort of shortcutting
the process.
Mr. Hamlin: Yes, Ma’am. I am trying to, yes. And, isn’t it true that you just
altogether quit cooperating with the department?
(Once we started realizing this was a trap and they were not going to give
him back no matter WHAT, then yes we stopped offering to give them
anything more they can use against us to keep our baby.)
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Mr. Hamlin: So it’s fair to say you haven’t accomplished any of the goals
that were in the ISP for your child to be returned to you.
These “goals” were fingerprints and a psychological evaluation. The
fingerprints were accomplished. We went to the psychological. We even
made an appointment for Christian for counseling to make them happy.
When we started realizing after visiting the psychologist that this was
clearly rigged and they had a clear agenda of dividing Christian and I
and conquering, we stopped giving into their ways. The first appointment
Christian had scheduled for counseling, they cancelled on him, and he did
not make any more appointments, because we started smelling the
funkiness of the situation and it felt wrong.
Christian: I haven’t broken any laws and I invoke my 5th amendment.
Mr. Hamlin: Isn’t it true that you have been protesting down on the corner
here in Heflin?
****(I guess the constitutional right to petition your government for
grievances is also null and void? Who would have thought?)
(We started off protesting quietly with “gagged” taped across our mouths.
We had signs showing NO confidential information at all. Danielle’s sign
said, “BABY NEEDS MOTHER NEEDS BABY.” Christian’s sign at first
said, “THE CREATOR GAVE BABY STOLEN BY THIEVES AND
LIARS”.)
Christian: I haven’t broke any laws and I invoke my 5th amendment.
Mr. Hamlin: Is it true that you have been putting posts on facebook about
this case?
(It’s the only way to save our baby.)
Christian: I haven’t broken any laws and I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Judge Walker: Okay, before we go much further, since you are talking
about what I perceive to be a possible violation of confidentiality of this
case which is commonly referred to as a gag order, and it is an order by
statute….
****(so statute trumps constitutional rights? I don’t think so. Maybe as
long as people get away with it, but what happens when everyone is made
to realize what is going on?)
Judge Walker:….is the department pursuing contempt at this point on that
issue?
(“This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which
shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made,
or which shall be made, under the authority of the United
States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges
in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the
Constitution.” FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHT OF FREE SPEECH.
Mr. Schlenker: Not at this time
Mr. Hamlin: Not at this time.
****(Apparently they are saving your incarceration for a better time.
They did issue you these audio tapes after you supposedly violated the
statute and were reprimanded in court, did they not? What did they
expect you might do with these audio tapes?)
(Right. If we had so CLEARLY broken their laws, and violated their
policies, then why were we not arrested 3 months ago? The Supervisor of
DHR would drive by us when we were protesting and slow down and glare
at us, laugh at us with her friends, and take pictures so blatantly and
obviously. Why were we not arrested back then?)
Judge Walker: Okay, and Mr. Holm I think I am probably being overly
cautious with this and I think Mr. Kirby may have already gone over
it…umm…if the department proceeds to pursue contempt at some point for
something that THEY perceive as a violation of that confidentiality of the
statute, you do have the right under contempt to a court appointed
attorney. Okay? Anything that you say could be used against you…
****(My, where have we heard that before?)
Judge Walker:…possibly from today. Obviously your comment, and it may
change, has been no comment. You are asserting your right to the 5th, but I
just wanted to go over that with you on the record to make sure that you
are aware that Mr. Kirby has sent a satisfactory explanation on that.
****(Just think what might have happened if you hadn’t decided to invoke
your 5th amendment right throughout this hearing? Now I think I
understand why the top leaders all do this. They know how the system
works).
(Yes, we felt it was important to not speak at all, because no matter how
much truth we speak, it is used against us in court. Guilty until proven
innocent, but they don’t want you to be proven innocent so you never will
be.)
Christian: We accept your oath to uphold our first amendment right.
****(First amendment right. Good point.)
Judge Walker: Go ahead, Mr. Hamlin.
Mr. Hamlin: And you have contacted people such as Medical
Kidnapping.com and gave stories of what is happening to you and your
child.
(Actually, no. We never reached out to Medical Kidnap.com. A friend did.
A friend told our entire story to them. Medical kidnap reached out to US
later.)
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Mr. Hamlin: And you’ve contacted the local paper and gave stories what
happened to you.
(We had our baby stolen on October 11. We got discharged from the
hospital on October 12 and told the local newspaper who did a story on
us instantly that day. It got printed on October 13. The gag order was
issued on October 14th in court. The local newspaper went out BEFORE
the gag order which is WHY we were gagged. Anniston Star is the
newspaper.)
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Mr. Hamlin: Do you have a suitable home for your child?
(We showed proof of a suitable home 2 months prior in the shelter care
hearing on October 14th. The Judge even said, since “shelter” seems to
not be an issue here…)
Christian: We haven’t broken any laws. I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Mr. Hamlin: DHR has explained how the procedure goes and I think the
court has explained and the attorneys you used to have has explained how
the procedure goes as far as the shelter care, the adjudication that we have
to prove dependency on your child, but to get your child back in the
meantime cooperation with DHR is a necessity.
Christian: I understand that the law was put in place for both sides of the
law, the badge holders and the non badge holders. I invoke my 5th
amendment right.
Mr. Hamlin: Do you understand for you to get your child back you are
going to have to cooperate?
(We were, until we realized it was all a rigged game. They suck parents in
who are vulnerable, poor, tired, upset. They drag them through everything
for them to not even get their children back. All for money.)
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Mr. Hamlin: You authored…may I approach, your honor? You authored
state’s exhibit…
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Mr. Hamlin: …to, okay. You were the author of state’s exhibit 3 also,
weren’t you?
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Mr. Hamlin: Were you questioned about state’s exhibit 3 earlier today?
Christian: I haven’t broken any laws and I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Mr. Hamlin: Did an officer come and question you and take DNA from
you concerning state’s exhibit 3 today?
(We sent them a Manufacturer’s Statement of Origin stating that the baby
is OUR baby that we created with our creator and that no one under the
natural law has the right to take him. Since our identity was in question,
we put a drop of blood on our thumbprint next to our signatures stating
we are the father and mother of our baby. We checked with laws, got
information from the federal post office and there is no law against a
dried drop of blood, (they call it DBS-dried blood specimen) as long as it
is properly in an envelope, which it was). Of course, they are trying to
make a big deal out of this. We ALSO, spoke with the FBI. The FBI was
given a copy and they said this does NOT warrant a terroristic threat at
all. Before the court hearing on December 5th, the same detective that
stole the baby off of me, was the same detective who brought us into a
room before the court hearing with a warrant to swab our mouths to check
our DNA to see if it belongs to the DBS on the paper we sent out. For
what? We don’t know….apparently to try and drum up something even
further and create another painted picture of crazy.)
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Mr. Hamlin: Did he explain why he was doing that?
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Mr. Hamlin: I gonna show you what I marked as state’s 6. Can you
identify who is in the picture?
Christian: I haven’t broken any laws, brother, and I invoke my 5th
amendment right.
Mr. Hamlin: Is this you in the picture holding a sign and wearing tape over
your mouth?
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Mr. Hamlin: This is right out here a couple blocks down in Heflin,
correct?
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Mr. Hamlin: I’d like to offer this in as state’s 6, your honor.
****(Apparently, statutes overrule first amendment rights to protest, even
silently with tape over your mouth. That pesky little constitution thing.
They got rid of that, didn’t they? Now to let the people know.)
(Yes, this tape over our mouths said, “gagged”.)
Judge Walker: Any objection?
Danielle: Objection. Proper predicate for the introducing of the
photographs is not…
Mr. Hamlin: But I asked if it was him and he said he invokes his 5th
amendment right.
Judge Walker: Okay. I don’t think you’ve laid the proper predicate, number
one. Number two, we talked about the gag order violation and what we
refer to as a gag order. It is not specific for your case. It is in every
case…and the ramifications he could suffer from that.
****(In every case, eh? This needs to be addressed. Here is a
stranglehold to justice for any citizen, reducing our nation to a despotic
one for sure.)
Judge Walker: Based on those ramifications and that he has asserted his 5th
amendment right, you can get it in through another witness but I’m not
letting you get it in through him. You need to leave it up to…..
****(Nothing like a little more state’s help for a seasoned attorney who
shouldn’t need it, right?)
(The judge is leading the state at this point, saying they can get it in
through someone else.)
Mr. Hamlin: Yes, ma’am.
Judge Walker: And I’m going to attach this on top of this so that we know
which ones were not admitted.
Christian: The gag order I believe was titles and organizations.
Judge Walker: Do you have a question for Mr. Kirby?
Christian: I have a question for you? The gag order implied titles and…
Judge Walker: Do you need to step out of the room to talk to Mr. Kirby?
(She did not want to answer the question about her own gag order that she
issued. The Gag order DOES state cannot identify child and about titles
and organizations.)
Christian: No ma’am. I’m okay.
Judge Walker: Are you sure?
Christian: Yes.
Judge Walker: We could take a break.
Christian: I’m okay.
Mr. Kirby: Do you have a question for me?
Christian: No, I don’t. As they were speaking about that earlier….no, I
don’t.
Mr. Hamlin: Is it true DHR has offered to provide services to you?
(They stole our child, and then tried FORCING us to take psych
evaluations and go to counseling when we do not need to go. We have no
pride, in the past if we wanted or needed to go to counseling we could and
we would. No need now, and they are trying to force us. This is not
providing services. This is control, conversation, coercion and force.)
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Mr. Hamlin: Do you want your child back?
(Trying to paint a picture here that we are not going along with their
FORCED plans against us therefore we must not want our baby back???
Sickly, wave your child over your head and not give him back if you don’t
do what they say, when you have done nothing wrong in the first place??)
Christian: I haven’t broken any laws and I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Mr. Hamlin: Did DHR offer gas vouchers to you all?
(NO. they did not offer. We asked, because THEY are making us drive
here, there and everywhere to deal with THEIR conversion
tactics…therefore it is the least they can do at this point.)
Christian: I haven’t broken any laws and I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Mr. Hamlin: DHR has arranged for visitation and…department visitation,
and any doctor’s visits, isn’t that correct?
(Wow, really?? Gee. Thank you. They have arranged for visitation? Our
baby was KIDNAPPED for NO REASON…He should be WITH us, let
alone visitations. and doctor’s visits??? This is so that the community can
make more money off of OUR BABY. Rather than DOCTORS visits, how
about you not rip a breastfeeding baby off of his mother and allow HIS
nutrition to not get ripped away from him, and his NATURAL
immunizations via colostrum that was freely and readily given to him via
his MOTHER given by GOD. Every time he goes to a “well visit” that is
completely unnecessary, they weigh him and measure him. And then he
leaves and gets sick to then have to go back for a sick visit. He would be
fine and not sick with his mommy and the proper nutrition! And we are
supposed to agree with them and THANK THEM???)
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Mr. Hamlin: And you have refused to cooperate with the department fully
at this point in time, haven’t you?
(How many more times are we going to answer this same question?)
Christian: I haven’t broken any laws. I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Mr. Hamlin: Your honor, I’m gonna pass him with subject to recall.
Judge Walker: It is now 4:40. I’m assuming Mrs. Holm is going to proceed
in asking questions. Do you know about how long that will take? Do you
want to go ahead and take a break and reconvene so that you will have
some time to gather yourself and get your questions together? We are
going to have to close and be out of the courthouse in about 20 minutes
anyway, so.
Christian: Does the courthouse not run 24/7, your honor?
Judge Walker: No, we don’t.
Christian: It doesn’t?
Danielle: I actually don’t have any questions.
Judge Walker: I am assuming guardian, are you gonna have questions?
Allison Miller (GAL) : Yes, your honor. I mean I don’t know if any of I
think that we’ll probably have the same testimony but I probably have a
few.
Judge Walker: My question is I want to go as far as we can go today
knowing that we are still open downstairs, but we are closed up here at
this point. Can you do….can you wrap that up within the next 20 minutes?
Allison Miller (GAL): Well, actually judge, I’ll tell you what. I will not
have any questions but as long as I can recall him…
Judge Walker: If you feel you need to recall Mr. Holm later that certainly
is fine.
Allison Miller (GAL) : I don’t have any questions at this time.
Judge Walker: So with that, the state does not have a chance for redirect
and we will stand in recess now. Mr. Schlenker, you told me that you have
on a TPR that is set that you will be continuing. Is that correct?
****(What is a TPR?)
(So, TPR means “termination of parental rights”….we have no idea if they
are speaking about US, in code, or if we are speaking about another case
on the record of OUR case, which is completely unprofessional. This is
good to point out, either way, because either way what they are doing here
is not right. Are they speaking in code about TPR on us?? OR something
else? We do not know.)
Mr. Schlenker: Yes ma’am. I will file a motion on that ——- tomorrow
very early and I’ve actually talked with the mother’s attorney about that as
well. He is aware that that is likely to occur based on my witness…..
Judge: So, everyone is available Wednesday, December 14?