Danielle’s comments are preceded by her name and a colon. Mine are preceded by asteriks **** and parenthesis.
Judge Turner Status Conference
Judge: We are in Cleburne County but we are having this status conference over here in Calhoun
County. The court has jurisdiction both in Cleburne and Calhoun. It is the same circuit court. In the
Juvenile Court, in the matter of John Doe as otherwise unknown, a child. Let me identify all who all is
in the courtroom. On behalf of the Department of Human Resources, they are represented by the
honorable Shelly Barnhardt. Who is that detective with you, there?
Shelly: This is Leslie Smith.
Judge: Ms. Smith. And you represent?
Leslie: DHR Supervisor for Cleburne County.
Judge: And then the parents are in the courtroom and the mom’s name is…
Danielle: Danielle Holm
Judge: Danielle, and middle name?
Danielle: Middle name? Nichole.
Judge: And HOLM is the way you spell your last name, right? Well you can match it all kinds of ways
but H o l l u m is the most common pronunciation…
Christian and Danielle: H o l l u m
Judge: Okay, and Dad’s at the table.
Christian: My name is Christian Clarke Holm.
Judge: And Kirby is here. I will identify kinda what your role is in just a second. We will get everybody
here first, and Guardian Ad Litem is also present in the courtroom, the honorable Alison Miller. That
Ms. Miller: Yes, your honor.
Judge: All right, a couple things. Let’s talk about your role first before we go too far down the road.
You don’t have to stand up. I appreciate…you all help me out with this if I need correcting, okay? It
seems like you all had some lawyers at the shelter care hearing, and then they did not represent you in
the dependency case but Mr. Kirby was assigned to kinda be on standby at the dependency case. Now
when I say dependency case, Mr. and Mrs. Holms, do you both understand what that was?
Judge: And you (Mr. Kirby) were kind of a standby counsel. Mr. Holm did all the questioning, and then
there was a day when you spent some time doing a lot of questioning, then you took a back seat again
and he started back questioning. So now, was there a rift between the decision about whether they
wanted your help or not? Or were you just trying to…I’m trying to figure out what you are doing?
Mr. Kirby: Well I was appointed on December 5 as standby counsel, then on December the 14, I think,
we continued the trial. I was still standby counsel. My status has never changed from standby counsel.
Mr. Kirby: There was an agreement between the Holms and I that they didn’t want me to represent
them. We at one time have talked about me representing just Christian Holm in the case, and then we
came to an agreement that they didn’t want that and I filed a motion to withdraw.
Judge: Guys, that motion is still in front of me and it has not been ruled on and I didn’t want to rule on
it until I kinda got you here and asked you what you wanted to do, and also the dad and mom kinda
what there thoughts about it, what they wanted you to do for them or not with them. So, do you want to
continue to go on by yourself, or do you like the idea that Mr. Kirby’s a standby person that you can
rely on for resources or questioning, or what do you want to see happen to Mr. Kirby at this point? Not
that I am going to do it. I’d just like to know what your thoughts are.
Danielle: We believe that we would be able to handle it ourselves, and we have nothing against Mr.
Kirby. We like him a lot but we feel nobody knows our case better than we do.
Judge: I understand. All right. Then Mr. Holm would that be your opinion as well?
Christian: Yes, it is.
Judge: Well, then the court having given an opportunity for the parents to weigh in on whether or not
they want you to continue to assist them, I mean I will, before I actually grant the motion I will also say
this. I guess Judge Walker actually appointed you as standby counsel…
Mr. Kirby: She did appoint me as standby counsel, yes sir.
Judge: Well then I would expect that you would need to get paid, to be quite frank with you. I know
that you’ve had some responsibility I think that you’ve indicated that you’d think you’d just volunteer
your time and energy but I’m not sure I’m going to accept that and you’ll need to file, I’m just telling
you, you’ll need to file an appropriate fee on the debt for the services that you’ve provided up to this
point. Is there a motion, do you have any pending motions that you have filed on them that you are
going to need to argue as we talk about these status’.
Mr. Kirby: Well, any motion that I would have filed electronically was done just to assist the Holm’s, so
the really pro se motion, the last motion that we had to address Judge Walker refused was a motion to
dismiss against the petition. That’s the last one that I assisted them drafting and filing.
Judge: So all the motions and opinions are done pro se. Anything on their path has been done pro se but
with your assistance.
Danielle: Not the last ones.
Mr. Kirby: Not the very last ones. There is only one left that I assisted them with and that was the one
to dismiss the petition based on the…
Judge: Okay. It sounded like there was only one more to be heard.
Mr. Kirby: There was.
Judge: Was that it?
Mr. Kirby: Yes, sir.
Judge: So the only motion to be heard, am I correct in this, is the motion to dismiss their dependency
Mr. Kirby: Yes, sir. That’s the last motion as part of the trial. Yes.
(Allison) : If I could interject. After we, I guess, finished up testimony for the trial, since that time
we’ve kind of been in limbo a little bit for lack of better word. There had been multiple other motions
filed but they are not the dependency trial led motions. They are post trial and other things that have
come up. There are a lot of motions pending out there.
Judge: All right, then those pending motions have to be ruled on before I do anything else with this
dependency side of the case in terms of…….——-I mean did they
(Allison): I don’t believe so, Judge. The only thing that is out there potentially pending, I know that
there was something about in the juvenile case that I believe has been sent up to the appellate courts as
far as the Mandamus goes so I don’t know what the status is of that because I didn’t receive notice after
it went, wherever it went. I just received a notice that it was filed in the juvenile case.
Christian: We actually decided to allow the Mandamus to dismiss because we don’t want to extend this
any further than it needs to be and the motions that we filed while we were in limbo as Allison said, it
was to try to get custody back of our child and due to his situation and our situation and how we
explained it in the motion.
Judge: Okay, so what I am hearing you say is that there was a pending Mandamus and what I am
hearing you tell me today is that you want to withdraw or move to dismiss that mandamus. Did you all
Christian: We did file it.
Judge: And you filed a response saying you want to withdraw it?
Christian: No, we haven’t, but we were told that if it’s not on docket so if it just pends out….
Judge: You’re willing to indicate to the court this morning that you are willing to orally moving to
dismiss your Mandamus? Is that correct?
Christian: If that will work, yes.
Judge: Has there been a response to the Mandamus?
Christian: And the Mandamus was pretty much to have this case as a speedy trial, to get it pushed
Judge: I can comment on that in just a minute. Now Shelly, you, when I set this status conference I
think the order stated status conference only, so I wasn’t going to take up a lot of what I called
substantial or substative motions, but I want to share with you all kind of how I got involved. Initially, I
was appointed to take this case on and the reason there has been a slight delay is because we have two
family judges in this courthouse and if the judge recuses in Cleburne County, before it lands on a jury
trial desk it should be handled in family court where the family judges are, okay?
****(Jury trial would turn out better unless the locals were all hand picked by local attorney’s who
knew what they were getting, and since the entire court system is designed to be a smooth machine
working AGAINST the parents, what is the difference? State’s interest prevails.)
Judge: Not because I don’t feel qualified, I do. I was a family judge for five years and I practiced family
law for about twenty five years, so it’s not that I’m not qualified, and so, and uh I don’t feel qualified
anyway. At least I’ve been exposed to things I should have learned over the years. I’m not saying I’m
brilliant but at least I’ve been exposed to a bunch of stuff over the years. So, I feel like it should run the
normal gamut of being presented to the family judges first. So I asked the presiding judge to make sure
it went through our family court. They both got it, and they both recused. I don’t know the specifics. I
just know they both recused. So then it ended up back here, and I think because our presiding judge
thought that because I had been a family court judge for a number of years, because that’s…I practiced
family law for twenty five years…I don’t think the fact that I went to…that I was a youth minister for 11
years had any bearing on that assignment, but you know, maybe it did.
****(Youth minister has a big bearing on this case, especially if he was Baptist, Church of Christ, or
one of the denominations who believe operating in the gifts of the Holy Spirit is of the devil. Religious
prejudice. It is important to find out what churches all of these Christian representatives of the state go
to. If they are atheist then that is also religious prejudice. Holms would still be victims being
prosecuted for the crime of believing in the wrong religion since this is a case rooted in religious
Judge: I don’t know, but be that as it may I got the case now. And as soon as I got it, I looked into it to
try to catch up to speed. So, that’s how the case got onto my desk. So this is a status conference.
Everybody is clear on that, just to kind of feel about what is going on, all right?
When judges pick up a case, there are two ways they can approach it. You know, some judge would say
I want to know all that happened before I got involved and they could say, you know, that was then,
this is now….We’re gonna start from scratch. That’s an option, you know? Now, I’m sure you’re sitting
out there, and I’m sure you’re sitting out there, you’all…I mean you….you and Mr. Holm, mom and dad
and guardian thinking, “Oh, my God. Let’s don’t do that. You know we’ve, we…we…we..covered a lot
of territory. Let’s don’t start over, right?
Christian and Danielle: Yes.
Judge: Well, I figured you all would think that way, and I figured you’d think that way, and I figured
they would think that way. So what I’ve done I have spent this past week, I have listened to every word
of testimony that’s been given in this case, okay?
****(We thank you for your expensive time and the effort you have put into it. Unfortunately, the time
was funded for the express purpose of finding a way to cover the liability of the state’s mistake. I will
take a guess and say you were their best shot. That is some indication of how difficult a challenge the
Holms have been to you in presenting proof accurately representing the crime perpetrated against their
family under color of law.)
Judge: And I have reduced it all to notes which completely fill this legal pad and part of another.
****(While you were doing that, did you catch the discrepancies with testimonies of state’s witnesses?
Since you were once a minister of the gospel, did you care? We have notes too. We have completely
filled these transcripts with notes showing the actual truth and how it has been twisted and manipulated
by those who are acting in the state’s interests AGAINST the Holms. That is not conspiracy theory.
That is simply Miranda. You know about Miranda, right, Judge Turner? )
Judge: So I have heard your case. That should be some consolation to you, you know, that we don’t
have to start all over again. In fact, after you have all resolved any of the motions you think I need to
hear other than the motion to dismiss, you know, I can make a decision. I can make it….I can probably
make it in about 15 minutes, but before I consider making a decision, since this is just a status
conference, I want to make sure that everybody has a chance to do a little homework before I come
back. I asked the Guardian Ad Litem, I called her when I got the order appointing me to this case, and I
said I want you to give me a written recommendation about what you think is in the child’s best
interests. Now look, I thought your argument at the conclusion of that case and the letter that your
husband wrote on or read on your behalf into the record was really beautiful…
****(Praise before you lower the boom, then praise at the very end. It is a formula. You can read about
it. Part of manipulation and control tactics and found in many training manuals.)
Judge: You know I got that. But I also thought, almost, you won’t like hearing this…
****(Here it comes, the boom…how did I know?)
Judge: But I also thought that the things that people tried to do…or really…had to do were appropriate.
You don’t want to hear that. I get that.
****(Of course you did. And actually, we do want to hear that. It helps with a future litigation in a
different type of court.)
Judge: I thought that with all that they had to do, particularly beginning on the 9th when you went into
****(So it was a “they” on the 9th. Somehow we knew that. DHR was involved a day before the baby
was born, just as we stated and it was at the campground.)
Judge: It could have been a disaster.
****(Sure, judge, and you or I could have had a car accident or a heart attack today, but we didn’t,
Praise the Lord. With your thinking, what do you do with all the disasters that happen from mistakes
occurring in hospitals on a daily basis? How about mistakes made in courtrooms that affect the lives
permanently of innocent children and on a daily basis? Disasters do happen. The miracle is that more of
Judge: So, I wanted to know and this may or may not be important enough to have a hearing about, but
I wanted to know who prompted the first call to 911 asking for help? So you all are aware, are they
aware Mr. Kirby that I know that I asked that to be done in my order?
Mr. Kirby: Yes sir.
Judge: Okay, and the reason I did is simple. I wanted the 911 record itself, because I wanted to know
who had the good common sense to call for help?
****(This judge is prejudice against home births, does not understand the large number of hospital
mortalities in infant statistics, and does not believe that any method of childbirth is acceptable other
than a hospital delivery. He is a product of his generation, but has not kept up with the times.)
Judge: Because I felt like Mrs. Holm needed help at that particular time. I’m not saying you need any
help right now, but right then when that child was about to be born you needed help more than he could
provide. And I say he for the record, your husband. So, you know, giving birth has certain problems
associated with it.
Christian: We agree.
****(Yes, life is dangerous too. It kills everyone eventually.)
Judge: Postpartum hemorrhage.
Christian: We agree.
Judge: Postpartum. What if you don’t stop bleeding? You know what? Then Mr. Holm gets to raise the
child however he wants cause you’ll be dead.
****(That does happen, and it happens in hospitals with the best of care. It is dangerous to have a baby.
Death comes fastest through blood clots which cause strokes or instant death. Hospitals can do nothing
about that. Husbands must raise these children alone. Hemorrhage is stopped by aggressive palpitation
of the uterus externally while the baby nurses. Most bleeding stops as soon as the placenta is delivered.
This is a fact the judge doesn’t know about because he is not medically trained. But he does have an
opinion, albeit an outdated one. The couple had studied childbirth.)
Judge: Hold on. Hold on. That would be a disaster.
Christian: Yes, it would.
Judge: But a distinct possibility in giving birth. Retained placenta. When folks who don’t know what
they are doing have a child being born there is a chord attached and if you pull the chord the placenta
may pull too hard…
****(No, the person may pull it too hard. The placenta just sits there.)
Judge: ….and leave the placenta in the mom’s womb. That’s a disaster…
****(Which is why you examine the placenta when it comes out to see if it is all there.)
Judge: Uh…you gotta nuchal cord wrap…
Judge: The possibilities that cord wraps around the child’s neck while it is in the womb or as it comes
out. It could tear or suffocate the child. The child is born with the symptoms of cerebral palsy and never
has complete neurological development. That’s a problem.
****(Yes, that is a problem. It is also a problem the hospital can’t fix either. My son was born that way
and in the hospital. He suffered learning disabilities all of his life. My sister-in-law had a son who also
had nuchal cord and who also was born in a hospital. He too has suffered learning disabilities all of his
life. I know more children who had the same thing and all were born in hospitals. Doctors do not fix
everything that occurs in a childbirth situation. By the way, when a child presents with nuchal cord, one
needs to lift it off and over the neck. That is not the difficult part. The problem is the damage that
occurs during labor contractions and oxygen is cut off to the brain, hypoxia occurs, damage happens
and nobody can do anything to fix it. If there is nuchal cord causing hypoxia and the mother is being
monitored with leads running to the fetal scalp, then sometimes it can be determined that the baby is in
trouble and a C-section can be done. Other than that it is one of those birth risks. It happens.)
Judge: shoulder distocia…know what that is?
****(Use the McRoberts maneuver with suprapubic pressure. If that fails, the Gaskin maneuver or
getting on all fours. Again, emergency childbirth preparation was done in advance by the parents who
were aware of what to do.)
Judge: What is it?
Danielle: When the baby’s shoulders get stuck in the pelvis and you have to turn them. ****(I bet the
judge wasn’t expecting you to answer.)
Judge: Absolutely. Sounds simple, doesn’t it?
Judge: Good. Cause it’s not. You know the head gets out, he is gasping to breath and all that kind of
stuff and he’s sideways.
****(This judge has never attended births nor does he understand what happens at birth. They do not
gasp to breathe. The infant has oxygen from the cord and can even be born into water, remaining under
water for quite a long time before needing to breathe oxygen. The baby is a fish and has been for 40
weeks. His oxygen comes from the cord. When the cord is cut it then becomes necessary for the baby
to breathe oxygen. They sometimes are born crying on the way out, but that is relatively rare. Most
don’t take their first breath until they are completely out. It is simple science, but this judge studied law
instead of science, it would appear. He googled just enough childbirth info to show his ignorance.)
Judge: You know how many children are born with neurological effects on their spine as a result of that
****(Judge, do you know how many children are born with those same effects or dead due to improper
forceps or vacuum assisted deliveries which are completely unnatural and damaging to newborns?
These are all born in hospitals and with trained medical personnel. Distocia injuries are prevalent in
Judge: Bones break, nerves are permanently damaged, they —————–arms or paralyzed because of
the stress on their nerves. Do you understand that?
Danielle: I do.
****(I don’t think this judge understands the hospital track record in this nation compared to other
nations for damaging and killing newborns. It is abysmal. Infant mortality according to the American
way of delivering babies is not something to be proud of.)
Judge: That’s a danger.
Danielle: It is.
Judge: Got a couple more. Erb’s palsy paralysis of the arms. Do you know what that is?
****(Do you? It is when a doctor pulls too hard on the baby in delivery and damages the child from
incompetence. It happens a lot. In hospitals. It is reason for a medical malpractice suit-against a doctor
in a hospital. In home births this is very unlikely to happen. The judge is unfamiliar with home birthing
but has been googling birth accidents without researching past the first page, in so many words).
Danielle: Say it again.
Judge: Erb’s palsy paralysis. Do you know what that is?
Danielle: Of the arms.
Judge: Yeah, because when you are trying to get that neck out and you are trying to pull one side out
ahead of time, you know a lot of strain on the arm. It is trying to come out with the shoulder.
****(Erbs is caused by pulling on the head or in the case of breech by pulling on the arms. That is a
no-no. Erbs should not happen and that is why it is malpractice. The judge needs to watch some birth
videos for education. I don’t think he gets it.)
Judge: That’s a disaster for the child.
Danielle: Could be.
Judge: Could be?
Judge: Inverted uterus. It inverts. It pulls out.
Judge: Do you know what that is?
****(I wonder if he knows you take your fist and steadily push it back in? It is also 1 in 3000, very
Judge: Now, of course you’ve got your normal tears.
****(Normal is right. Women were made to give birth. Most tears are straight and not ragged. Most are
very small and need no stitches to heal. Serious tears can be repaired at a hospital. Home birth in
delivery friendly positions suffer far less tears. Women were never made to be flat on their back, legs
lifted high and in stirrups, medicated, and forced to try to push an 8 lb. infant out while trapped in that
position. Hospital delivery can cause many of the problems that then need to be addressed.)
Judge: If those aren’t properly sutured and don’t heal well, for lack of a better description and somewhat
gross description you end up using the restroom out of your vagina instead of your rectum. You don’t
****(He really doesn’t know what he is talking about. Even if this were true for some rare person, they
would go to the doctor to get it repaired. The worst tears happen with vacuum assist or forceps delivery
in a hospital, unnatural or forced pushing which can happen in a hospital delivery, and very fast
deliveries which don’t always make it to hospital. Birth positions also contribute to less tearing. Home
births are very different in many ways and tearing is avoided with several methods.)
Judge: So those are problems. Now Mr. Holm are those all illegal and would you break the law if those
things happened? No. Because you know you were concerned about that we didn’t break any laws. You
may not have. I’m with you on that but this is a civil case and we talk about negligence and risks, and
all those kinds of things. So I will tell you, not having made a rule yet, that you might have been doing
good about your choices for natural childbirth. That’s awesome. A lot of people do it. A hospital has
provisions for it. Did you know that? You can have a child in a hospital, have a water simulated tank
until the moment of birth, and then move toward a natural birth without drugs or medications..
****(Oh yeah! Here is a commercial for just what the judge is encouraging here. This is an Alabama
hospital, of course. (http://www.urbo.com/content/mom-gets-16-million-after-nurses-did-this-to-herbaby-
****(So because two parents did not choose the birth plan that you would have preferred they deserve
to have their newborn taken and subject to re-education? And you just stated they broke no laws. Land
of the brave and home of the free.)
Christian: We did not know that.
Judge: Were you aware of that? Completely acceptable.
Christian: No, we did not know that.
Judge: I know. Listen…
Danielle: We started with a mid-wife.
Judge: My mom had a mid-wife deliver my brother in the bottom of a basement while bombs were
dropping over their head in Frankfurt, Germany. So I know a little bit about natural childbirth through
my mother’s personal testimonies about it.
****(That would be a PTSD experience, not too natural, definitely prejudicial to home-birth advocates
and those believers in truly natural childbirth, not war-time experiences.)
Judge: Now do I think that’s all illegal and of the devil? No.
****(This town and its townspeople are really fixated on the devil. They mention him constantly in
court testimony. Anyone notice? They are even willing to repeatedly lie about Christian and Danielle
referencing the devil, the beast, etc.)
Judge: But these are risk factors.
****(Yes. Childbirth is very risky and hospitals are risky places to deliver babies in.)
Judge: So, when you all say you haven’t done anything wrong, well I’m going to have to say I
respectfully disagree in a few regards. That is a child’s life and proper development was at risk…
****(Wrong conclusion. Childbirth is risky, hospitals are dangerous, and this judge has prejudicial
opinions based on his PTSD wartime experiences for fear of losing his mother in childbirth.)
Danielle: That’s why we called 911.
Christian: Well, let me also explain to you…there is more to it…
Judge: The 911 tape…I’m gonna listen to it, and I’m gonna hope to hear one of you all’s voices, not that
it makes or breaks this case…
Danielle: It’s missing and we have proof on our phone.
Christian: Yeah, for some reason somebody is hiding our call.
Judge: I know you all….it’s missing?
Christian: Somebody is hiding it.
Danielle: Our phone call we have tried finding for the last four months. We’ve called every county.
Nobody can produce it, but it is in our phone.
Christian: According to the calls of where we spoke to the counties…
Judge: You’ve got your phone recorded?
Danielle: We printed out…we don’t have a phone recording…we printed out when we called and we
called at 6:29 PM and on 10/9/2016 fifteen minutes before that call and it shows my…
Danielle: mother’s phone number, day before that my car payment bill, ———called right after that…
Christian: And I would just like to say that we made that judgment call together, because of the
Judge: Good for you.
Christian: And also, we read many books…
Danielle: Went to midwives….
Christian: Uh, birthing, went over what you were talking about, to turn the baby as it’s coming out…
Judge: I get all that. I get it. I ain’t buying it.
****(You won’t because you have preconceived ideas and you will not be listening to anyone with a
different childbirth plan than yours even though you admit no laws were broken. And even though you
had to have read what caused some of those birth injuries you read about in your research, hospital
Judge: I could read a book on how to ride a bike all day long. I aint riding a bike from a book I’ve read.
You’re not properly delivering a baby from a book you’ve read.
****(Basically, you catch them. This man really needs to watch some birth videos. It isn’t that hard.)
Danielle: That’s why we called 911.
Judge: Good for you.That was a good use of your good common sense that God gave you, you know?
****(Get ready for it…first the praise…then the boom)
Judge: Now I know that you feel like God will provide and God will do all this, but God also gives us a
brain to use, and I’m not saying that you all are unlearned. I think that you’ve got good sense.
Christian: I think that it was a part of our belief to have a natural birth.
Judge: Listen, when you’re talking about belief and common sense, I’m right with you. I spent four
years at the Southern Baptist Seminary…
****(Chiching! Here is our first Baptist. I bet there are many more in this stage of actors.)
Judge:…coming out of a church at age 18 with a whole bunch of questinos about life and about
suffering and about purpose. I get that…
Christian: It was our religious belief.
Danielle: And we just wanted to try with the backup plan of calling 911 and that’s exactly what
Judge: I like people with strong religious beliefs and convictions, but I like them surrounded by good
****(As long as they are your beliefs, you like them.)
Judge: And I have to say after I have listened to all the evidence in this case, there was a dearth, that
means vacuum of good common sense (chuckles) when you are dealing with what… two onesies and a
****(Boom! There it is. Praise, then castigate.)
Danielle: That’s false too. Completely false.
Judge: Okay. That’s what I heard. But I never saw any pictures of any…
Danielle: I have pictures right here.
Judge: What you got? I tell you what, since this is a status conference, you submit those pictures, and I
will consider them when I make my decision.
Judge: You see where I am going with this, don’t you.
Christian and Danielle: Yes.
Judge: Okay. But listen. Don’t panic because I am going to consider this recommendation by the
Guardian Ad Litem. You’re not going to have a lot of work to do at our next hearing. Neither one of you
all. It’s going to be short and sweet. You’re not going to like all of it. You’ll probably like most of it.
You’ll probably be….like most of it cause this is going to get resolved and resolved pretty fast.
Christian: What I would like to mention is that uh…if we could look at the evidence and/or facts that
the DHR organization have at the time of taking our child and/or at shelter case hearing of the petition.
Judge: Let me tell you what I think about that. It reminds me of the story about the tar baby. You know,
once you get your hands on something it is kinda hard to turn loose of it. Now they were invited in, so
to speak, by the 911 call.
Danielle: Who was?
Christian: Who was invited?
Judge: Them. The 911 call goes to a medical provider. The medical provider begins to give you care of
treatment when they feel like in their minds whether they agree with you or disagree with you…when
they feel like in their minds that a child is at risk based upon what they are observing…now the child
they————————being attended to-no emergency there but as the young girl from DHR
testified, I’m not sure if it was you or somebody else…you know when you kept on her about what did I
do wrong? You know you kept asking the question what did we do wrong? I don’t think wrong is the
right question, you know. The question is what could we all be doing that’s in the child’s best interest?
Now would I have liked to have seen that child stay right there where it was and not leave your side?
Absolutely. Absolutely, but if I’m in their shoes…if Im in their shoes and they have to sort out who you
are…which ultimately has been resolved…
****(And yes, why do the medical representatives sit on their phone and Google patient’s names while
they supposedly are there to give medical care to this patient they will be extracting large amounts of
money from for that care? Why would a nurse WANT to find out something bad about their patient?
Don’t they have enough work to do taking care of them?)
Judge: You know, I’m asking you to try to indulge a little bit of patience for a bureaucratic state
sponsored agency who you think is of the devil…
****(There he goes again with his fixation on the devil AND his knowledge into the minds of these
parents. Does he read minds while he sits on the bench and plays God, asking us all to have patience
with lawbreaking kidnappers who are the criminals in this instance? They are not innocent bureaucrats
of the state. They know full well what they do when they lie in court!)
Judge: …who is given the responsibility of making sure children are not abused or neglected.
****(Wrong! God gave parents the responsibility. The government does not own the children.
Government does not have primary responsibility to prevent abuse. Citizens ARE innocent of crime
until we actually DO A CRIME. We are not liable for crimes we MAY commit, only those we actually
DO COMMIT. Judge is confused about what nation he lives in. This is not Russia.)
Christian: We respect the judicial system. We don’t respect lies.
Judge: Well, I understand that. You know, when you say lies, the court has to make decisions about
what they believe to be the facts in that case. I think the facts are thank God the child is born healthy,
thank goodness. Danielle: I agree and I will say to that I am a very holistic, organic person. I eat fruits
and vegetables. I try not to eat meat as much as I can. My entire pregnancy I spent exercising, I spent
with organic prenatal vitamins, I went to doctors, I got sonograms, I had these things happen, I made
sure he was healthy at all times.
Judge: Awesome. That’s awesome.
Christian: We’d also like to make notice that we took all…
Judge: Hold on. Hold on.
Judge: I think that’s wonderful. My mom is 94. All I heard all my life is you got to eat your fruits and
vegetables. You need to drink your water. We’re not buying cokes for this house. One of the reasons
why I think she did is because she believes that is healthy. Another reason I think she is is because she
is cheap. She didn’t want to buy coke. I mean that’s not…but I appreciate all you’ve just said about
Judge: But here is where I have trouble in this open discussion we are having this morning. Here is why
I have trouble. You are about to deliver a baby, you know it’s coming, correct?
Judge: I’m not sure I even knew from testimony how far along you were.
Danielle: I was about 42 weeks, full term.
Judge: So, that would be time to go, wouldn’t it?
****(Thus, the labor? Babies have their own time schedule. Most of them do arrive at some time.)
Danielle: Yep. And I really, really wanted to try as much as I possibly could to be in nature, with God
as natural as possible…
Judge: I agree.
Danielle: …with the backup of cellphone being right next to us. We befriended the state park
superintendent. We told her what was going on. Everyone was fine with it. Everyone knew where we
Christian: We let them know everything that we were doing.
Judge: Thank goodness they did because they had to get that ambulance up there pretty quick.
****(Actually there would be about 13 more hours before the birth, but everyone depends on an
ambulance to come for their “golden hour” in emergency medicine and yes, we do have that in our
governmental system. There is no guarantee they will save you, but we trust they will try. In the
hospital people die also, even when they call their emergency system, code blue. Life kills us all
Danielle: And when we called 911, the ambulance came.
Judge: Good for you. It is a good thing the park ranger knew where to direct that ambulance because
you know how long it takes a baby to suffocate in a mother’s womb when it can’t get out?
****(Again, he is talking about a birth trauma of hypoxia, a medical condition the hospital cannot fix
either. The baby still dies or is born damaged. For compressed cord, another birth trauma or condition
that can occur, the hospital can do an emergency C-section. In the field the emergency worker or
husband manually holds the birth canal open to prevent total prolapse until they can get to a hospital.
This is covered in birth manuals and emergency medical training.
Judge: How long?
Danielle: Not long and I will say I was in labor for another 13 hours after that.
Judge: Right, right.
Danielle: So I had a good amount of time. Once I called 911 I was still in labor for 13 hours.
Judge: Thank God you did. Well what would have happened….
Danielle: It wouldn’t have happened because I would have called 911 as soon as I knew I had to which
Judge: Okay, let me ask you a few simple questions.
Judge: Where is the nearest 911 car?
Danielle: 911 car?
Judge: The ambulance, the transport vehicle. Where is it?
Danielle: Well, they said they came from Piedmont.
Judge: Okay. Well, is that the closest?
Christian: We are not from here. Judge: Where is the closest from Shelby (?).
(female): Judge, it’s probably the Cleburne County EMS. They are located on Hwy 46, which is
between Heflin and the 205…
Judge: You are from there. How long is the drive?
(female): I don’t know exactly where the parents were in the state park but I would estimate at least 15
to 20 minutes from…well probably 15 minutes from where EMS is to the bottom of the mountain, like
281 where you get on…
Judge: Fair enough. 15 to 20 minutes at the best and this is Cleburne because they rotate EMS calls and
I guess when the call went out they don’t really appreciate fully what is happening during the
timing…15 to 20 minutes closest car…closest ambulance. Are you with me? You understand where I am
going with this?
Danielle: Yes. Christian: We hear you.
Judge: You hear me?
Christian: We are not quite understanding but we hear you.
Judge: Well, let me make it real clear for you. How long does it take a child to suffocate in a mom’s
****(How long does it take a child to die from anaphylaxis from hornet’s nest attack, or die from
cotton moccasin bite in a creek, or die from black widow bite, or die from drowning in a lake, or die
from car accident while on a rural road, or die from choking while on a picnic, or die from….your point
is? Children should be taken away from all parents who take their kids more than five minutes away
from the almighty hospital?)
Christian: We don’t..I don’t know how to answer that.
Judge: Don’t know? Do you know?
Christian: No, I do not know that.
Danielle: I am using my common sense to know not very long. Judge: Two, three minutes?
Judge: Fifteen, twenty minutes you don’t have a baby boy Holm.
Danielle: Are we going with what ifs?
Danielle: Okay. Because I was still in labor for 13 hours.
Judge: Because we use our good common sense to avoid the what ifs.
Danielle: Yes, and we did by calling 911 as soon as I knew that there could be…
Judge: What happened to the 15 minute drive?
Danielle: There wasn’t that bad of a problem to…
Judge: Thank God. But what if? I know that is not a fact but that is a reality in life.
Danielle: It could be. I could leave the courtroom right now and get hit by a car.
Judge: Absolutely. What if the strangers hadn’t given you food and water?
Danielle: We had food and water.
****(They weren’t crossing the Sahara dessert judge, just Alabama.)
Judge: What if they hadn’t given them to you?
Christian: It would have been all right because they were just offerings.
Danielle: We had them. We had our own food and water.
Judge: What if someone stops along the road and just grabs your wife up while you all are walking
from Montgomery to Cheaha?
****(Criminals will do their deeds. They also have been known to shoot at cars and force cars over to
the side of a road. Criminals are everywhere, judge. You should know that. They come into locked
houses where people sleep. They shoot up kids in schools like sitting ducks. They bomb city streets
when people gather for innocent functions. They are so prevalent that we go through long lines at the
airport just to try to weed out some of them. We already live in a what if world. Taking babies is one
more terrible criminal act and this time it is the government. What if we put a stop to that?)
Judge: What if they did?
Danielle: We were always together.
Judge: Oh well, they would just knock him out.
Christian: Well we have to have trust in God and love in God.
Judge: Absolutely. That’s why we live in such a perfect world where none of this stuff happens, right?
****(No, read your Bible again, Mr. Baptist youth minister. It WILL happen and we have to have trust
in God that God will make things right in the next world. In this one we shall have tribulation. John
Christian: Well, we hope it doesn’t happen.
Judge: We hope.
Christian: And we hope that the judicial system is put in place so that way peers can be governed by
peers until we can find…
Judge: Here’s where we differ.
****(He loves to cut off Christian a lot. Have you noticed? Not so much Danielle.)
Judge: The judicial system does not cure all of the ills that befall people. We’re a place of last resort.
People end up here because of tough decisions that they have made or did not make. We are the worst
place to be the fixer. Wouldn’t that be safe to say?
Christian: Ultimately we would like to be from brother to brother, sister to sister to be able to handle
situations. But I don’t think we are there yet.
Judge: No, I think we got a long way to go but I’m just trying to make a point. You could almost not
have had a Holm baby boy.
Danielle: I wouldn’t say we couldn’t almost because I was still in labor for 13 hours and he was
delivered perfectly healthy.
Judge: Thank God!
****(You thank Him a lot for someone who can’t trust Him to do much.)
Christian: We trusted in God.
Danielle: We trusted in God, and we called 911, and we did what we had to do.
Judge: You know I can tell while I am sitting here. It really won’t matter how much I talk. I’m glad you
believe the way you do…
****(That is a lie! You absolutely do not believe those words you just said and you are wasting
taxpayers money sitting on the bench trying to convince these believers NOT to believe the way they
do. Now that is the obvious truth!)
Judge:…but I am entrusted now…entrusted to make a decision about what is best for a child. Good, bad,
or indifferent, I’ve got that responsibility. While I respect and will appreciate your religious
considerations about the decisions you have made, in my humble opinion and I will do this in the form
of an order maybe and maybe not, they are…very risky, okay?
Christian and Danielle: Uh..hmmmm.
Judge: I can’t let your religious thoughts and beliefs interfere with what I think is best for your child.
I’m not superman, I’m not the brainchild with raising children, but I’m old. I’m old. ****(You are also
completely ignorant of the U.S. Constitution. It is not your child as you would suppose. The parents are
charged with responsibility for decisions. The decisions you made for your child you had the right to
make because they were your children and you lived in a free America. The decisions parents now
make they no longer have the freedom to do because we live in a country where the state now owns the
Judge: Now I had two children, a girl 27 and 22. Love them both, ——————- just like anybody
else that —————–. All parents feel like that about their kids
****(except non-biological parents. They struggle a little bit at times. Statistically verifiable.)
Judge: But I can’t let what I would perceive to be…even though things worked out well, 13 hours to
delivery, lucky for you. Maybe God had his hand on you.
Danielle: And he was born completely in the sac, engulfed in the sac, no risk of infection…
Judge: I get all that, all the prophecies, the divine child. I got all that.
****(Except the words just quoted from the case record were part of the lies of the witnesses who were
trying to portray the parents as religious kooks. Those were not the parents words.)
Judge: I’m not being cynical about it. The reality is you were lucky. You dodged a bullet.
Christian: Does that mean that everybody for the past thousands of years was lucky before hospitals?
Judge: God bless them. That’s right. The reality is that we have hospitals and we know a little bit more
than we did thousands of years
****( hospital births in the United States aren’t very safe at all when compared to home or hospital
births in other developed counties in general. Ours is one of only a handful of countries in the entire
world whose maternal mortality rates are rising. And they’re doing so rapidly. Our maternal death rate
has doubled over the last 25 years. In California, it tripled in a mere decade. We are 50th in maternal
deaths compared to any other nation. Why?http://www.parenting.com/blogs/natural-parenting/taylornewman/
Judge: I get the Mary and Joseph, and I get the divine, and I know all that, and I don’t know that you all
are creationists or Christians. I don’t…
Danielle: We don’t believe…
Christian: We don’t classify ourselves
Judge: Well you said you were Christians.
Christian: No, we didn’t. Actually somebody else said that. We never said…
Judge: I thought I heard you say you were.
Danielle: No. Christian: No, I said we protect creation and we try to stand up for creation.
Judge: You are minimalists.
Danielle: No. No.
Christian: No, we are just naturalists.
Danielle: Only Hamlin said that.
Judge: Oh, you’re naturalists?
Christian: Well, I don’t like titles. We just try to live as close to nature as possible. I think that is the
best way to say it.
Judge: I’m with you on that. So, I’m focusing a lot of attention over here. Are you all liking what I’m
saying or are you, okay, the judge is just talking?
(female) Yes sir. ..——————- Judge: All right…
Danielle: I would also like to say it is within my DNA. I am actually in the process currently with an
investigative journalist in Canada right now who has done a lot of work over the last month with my
genealogy and I am about to do a DNA test. I have Native American heritage on both sides of my
family. It was my mom’s side and my dad’s side. I’m closer on my dad’s side.
Judge: I like the Native American language. You know why? Cause it’s a very smart thing for people to
bring that up in court because there is a Native American standard that has to be applied in this case. So
if you will all notice, that’s coming. So, when it gets here, I’m learned in that field. —-my grandmom,
great grandmom black Cherokee. I’m good on that. It’s just a matter of certain kinds of verbiage and
language. Let’s make sure that that issue is fully resolved and we can call the tribe and let them see if
they want to weigh in on this so it can get flipped at the appropriate time. You make sure of that,
(Dianne?) She’s informed me. They have sent that…
Danielle: However, they don’t have my dad’s side of the family, which is actually closer. I just found
Judge: Hey, we’ll accept the fact that there is an Indian strain running…
Danielle: In my blood (chuckles)…
Judge: No problem. We will handle that legal standard at the appropriate time, and we’ll will find
the————-either —————–with what we got to do or considerate it either way. I want it out
there and I want it spoken to, and I want us to have ample opportunity, which means that I might have
to prolong unfortunately for you all, a decision until we let the Indians come in if that’s where you are
going with this. So, do you want the Indians involved.
Christian: It might be necessary for our baby because it goes along with our religious beliefs.
****(At least you would get your baby back and it appears Indian nation trumps Constitutional
Judge: No problem. The problem with the tribe is that they’ve got a long way to come.
Christian: Well, if they will come we will welcome them.
Judge: I cannot wait for the cavalry and fight this myself or I can wait for the Indians and we can
prolong this matter. Do you want the Indians to come on in?
Christian: All right, so if you can show me any evidence or facts that the DHR organization has any
jurisdiction over us, then I can answer that question?
Judge: Okay. It’s not my job to tell you that but I’ll accommodate you, okay?
Christian: All right.
Judge: The law indicates that they are a state agency that requires that they look out for the care and
control and custody of children who are in need and/or are dependent. That’s an Alabama statute. I’m
not going to read it to you, okay? You don’t want Mr. Kirby? That means you feel like you can take care
of your own business. Which it is not my responsibility to educate you about what the law is but I will
tell you the law gives them that power. Go read it. Google it. Case law in dependency actions in the
state of Alabama. Learn it for yourself.
Christian: It says they have actual jurisdiction over us?
Judge: Absolutely. Absolutely.
Judge: And they have to do…they have to make what is called reasonable efforts. In our mind they
haven’t made them.
Christian: No, they haven’t.
****(Lying in court count as reasonable efforts?)
Judge: In my humble opinion I won’t say they have or haven’t, but I will say they have gone a long way
down the road in doing all the things that they probably need to do to make sure that the child is
protected until they find out what the deal is with mom and dad. Now, I will say this. If I’m a dad and I
have a mom who wants to be a mom like that, I am going to bust my tail to make sure she is going to
have every opportunity to have that child at her side. That’s what I’m going to do. So if I have to endure
a visit at the department you know with somebody looking over my shoulder, come on down. If I have
to have a supervisor, if I have to go to a certain location, if they put a bed of coals out there in a fire,
I’m walking across them. You know why, because my consideration for my wife and my child is more
paramount to me then some of my religious beliefs at that time. You might not like that.
****(That could have been Christian’s speech to the judge until the part of forsaking religious beliefs.
What matters more than our eternity? What matters more than God? Religious beliefs are the apex of
all our freedoms. There is nothing more important. As far as what the judge thinks about doing
whatever is required for the ones he loves, this judge has no idea to what degree Christian is actually
going for this wife and child. He will find out. )
Christian: Can I…Well, I like our constitutional rights and I feel like they are being violated.
Judge: Good for you but your feelings really don’t matter to me.
Christian: It’s not my feelings. It’s our constitutional rights.
Judge: You said I feel like that then so then I mean….I don’t mean to be so blunt but I really don’t care
about your feelings.
Christian: Well I think that…
Judge: I just have to do what I have to do as a judge.
Christian: Right. We just ask that our constitutional rights be upheld and that the burden of proof is on
DHR, not us.
Judge: At this point, your constitutional issues are not that important to me. I am concerned
about what’s best for your son. So let’s not get hung up in theory and academics and legal
****(Those constitutional rights are gone )
Judge: Let’s talk about what’s doing what’s best for your son. You want to raise him?
Christian: Of course I do. Of course we do.
Judge: Do you want him to be with you just as quick as possible?
Judge: Don’t you all have a few things that you’ve asked them to do?
(female voice): Yes.
Judge: Basic things. They haven’t asked you to ——————————–. They’ve asked you to get a
roof over your head, have some….
Danielle: We’ve had a roof over our head since we’ve left the hospital.
Judge: Hold it. Hold it.
Judge: You’ve had an argument with the lady who was going to buy you a camper because they
wouldn’t put it in your name according to her.
Christian: I didn’t have an argument with her. She is the one who stole it out from underneath us.
Danielle: With the donation money.
Judge: Really? Did you own it?
Christian: We own it? No.
Judge: Who raised the money?
****(Is the judge now perpetrating and defending her act of fraud?)
Christian: Well, I was told by the church. It was a church that raised the money.
Judge: You’ve got a lot of nerve!
Christian: I speak truth, yes!
Judge: No, you don’t. You are full of baloney.
Christian: No, I’m really not.
Judge: Yes, you are.
Christian: No, I’m…
Judge: Don’t get me going on this…
****(Domestic violence 101…don’t make me hurt you…I call you bad names, insult you, but that
doesn’t mean you can do anything about it. Don’t protest or you will make me have to hurt you.
Domestic violence 101. Judge needs rehab.)
Judge: Look. She raises money for you, she starts to provide you with a camper and you gripe because
they can’t put it in your name?
Christian: No, I did not…
Judge: You hear what I’m saying? You know what I’m saying?
Judge: Thanks for the trailer. We are going to get baby boy Holm in this trailer. You all come on
Danielle: Because we…
Christian: Actually, that is what we did. We tried to do that.
Danielle: That’s what we did but we were told that…
Judge: You dissed her. You distanced yourself. Anybody doesn’t do what you want, you throw them
against the wall. There terr——– all demonic
****(There he goes again with his fixation with demons. Interesting town. They all seem to be fixated
with the devil. They keep inserting it in the court documents.)
Christian: No, we did not distance ourselves from them. We were told that it was going to be put in our
name and then she…
Judge: Well you’re getting cranked up now….good
****(Keep hoping, judge. Keep hoping. It ain’t going to happen.)
Christian: I’m not cranked up at all here. I’m just speaking truth.
Judge: Yeah. Okay. Mr. Holm, you know some of the concerns that they have?
Judge: They, being the Department of Human Resources and the officers that testified in this case…they
are concerned about your…and I will be kind about this…about your mental health. You feel like in your
mind that you’ve got a good mental health.
****(This is truly the state’s problem, because Christian has such great mental health and they have
nothing else to base their case upon.)
Christian: I’m speaking to you right now face to face. I feel like I have mental health. I am competent
and I am very objective right now.
Judge: Right. I’m glad you think that way.
Judge: Unfortunately, it doesn’t match with reality.
****(I guess not if you are living in the Twilight Zone.)
Christian: Your reality or whose reality?
Judge: You figure that out. And when you do you will go longer….a lot farther in getting your son back
when you come to grips with that.
****(Open threat. Accept that you are mentally ill in order to save the state financial responsibility for
their part in the illegal kidnapping and maybe you will see your kid again, maybe.)
Judge: Okay. Now you know what you are supposed to do, Ms. Holm? You know what you all are
supposed to do?
Danielle: In regards to what?
Judge: Getting your son back. That should be an answer that you should come back with like that…
Danielle: I know what they are asking us…
Judge: Well, I’m not asking…I’m not asking what they are asking you.
****(Actually, you were. Now you are ambushing and pushing her into a corner in order to get her in a
more submissive posture. It is a device. Those of us who have experience with being abused recognize
all of this very well.)
Judge: What do you think you are supposed to do to get your son back?
Danielle: I think that we should have had our son the entire time…
Judge: I’m not asking you what should or shouldn’t have been done before we were here. What are you
supposed to do to get your son back?
Christian: I think we are overlooking the petition at large…
Judge: Now I’m not talking to you. I’m talking to your wife.
****(Of course not. You are forcing the husband to be a silent participator in the abusing of his wife as
he must watch you now verbally eviscerate her in front of him. This judge is perverse but knows it.)
Danielle: I know what they are telling us to do.
Judge: No, no. I don’t want you to tell me what they are telling you. What do you think you should have
to do to get your son back?
Danielle: We have a camper full of all baby needs. We have… Judge: Okay.
Danielle: We have running water.
Danielle: We have electricity.
Danielle: We have a car. I’ve had a car the whole time with a car seat in it ready to go. I’ve got formula
now because my milk dried up.
Judge: I know. That’s tragic.
Danielle: I have diapers. I have wipes. 800 to be exact.
Judge: You got all that don’t you?
Danielle: I have everything.
Judge: You like that little lady sitting back out there we call the Guardian Ad Litem? You know her?
Danielle: Allison Miller.
Judge: You like her?
Danielle: She’s…I’m getting to know her…but I like everybody in this courtroom.
Judge: I know that you really like me.
Christian: Oh, we love everybody in this courtroom. We might not like their actions but we love
Danielle: We love everybody.
Judge: Good answer. This young lady back here is called the Guardian Ad Litem. Do you know what
her job is?
Danielle: To take care…to make sure the baby’s interests are met.
Judge: The law requires that any infant or child in Alabama who is a party to a legal proceeding, which
unfortunately yours became one, okay? Has to have a lawyer.
Judge: They have legal rights just like a real person. Somebody has to speak for them. She has been
given that job like it or not, whether you like it or you like it or she likes it. She’s been given that
responsibility to make sure the child is provided for just like day 1. Okay, now the past being the past
we can make a lot of quick progress if we don’t get hung up on academics and theory and religion or
****(i.e. constitutional or human rights)
Judge: I just need you to tell me what you think you need to do to have your son placed back into your
care physically? I’m not talking about legally. I’m saying physically brought back to your home with
certain requirements. What do you need to do? What have you already done?
Judge: You don’t need to tell her. She’s got a voice of her own.
Christian: We are one.
Judge: Don’t care what you’re talking about. I’m talking to her.
Danielle: Okay. I do have my own mind so I can speak…
Danielle: So we have pictures of everything that we have…
Judge: Okay. I’ve got a question for you. Have you got the Guardian Ad Litem out to the house?
Danielle: Not yet, and we just met with her yesterday to speak about things…
Judge: Well, wait a minute. She’s been on the case since October.
Danielle: Right. Because this is why. We are afraid of these people who keep on using everything
against us because of their lies, so we don’t want, unless we have something…
Judge: That’s worked real well for you hasn’t it?
Danielle: At least, if we can have something on paper knowing exactly what’s needed to prove when
they come to our house, we have no problem having somebody come to our house if we can have
something in writing showing what is necessary beforehand, so that there’s no ifs ands or buts…
Christian: Can we have it in writing?
(Guardian): Judge, I did meet with the parents yesterday. I told them that I don’t necessarily have a list.
They did show me the pictures yesterday, but I’m…
Danielle: Some of them…
(Guardian): I have asked, actually at the last ISP, I met with the parents after and told them that I did
want to come to their home, that I would do that without DHR> They didn’t want me to know their
address, that I would come in…
Judge: No, no, no, no. Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute.
(Guardian): Just so that I could actually see where they were staying.
Judge: I got you. You can keep that to yourself and we can deal with that at the next hearing. We’ll take
a baby step. I just won’t barge in and you know…although the norm is if you are not willing to give an
address see ya later.
Danielle: I’m afraid of them to be honest with you.
Christian: We don’t live…we’re not from Alabama. We are being held here hostage…
Judge: So. I don’t care.
Christian: Because of this here event.
Judge: I don’t care if you’re from Alabama or not.
Christian: Right. We were migrating through Alabama.
Judge: All I know is that you stopped at the wrong place to stop and deliver a child.
Christian: We completely agree.
Judge: We will let you go as soon as we know the child is being provided for and being well taken care
****(Since you don’t believe in constitutional rights, why should anyone believe your words? What
legal system do you adhere to? It isn’t the U. S. Constitution.)
Judge: You got to make that happen.
Danielle: What I would…
Christian: He was since day 1.
Judge: Uh, well, okay….sure.
Danielle: So we…if we can have something in writing showing exactly…
Judge: I tell you what I’m gonna do. I’m gonna have Ms. Miller sit down and propose a long drafted list
of requirements that newborns should have available to them.
Christian: We would need that to come from DHR since they are the ones who are trying to impose that
Judge: You gonna let me finish?
Christian: Yeah, sir. sure.
Judge: That draft will be shared with all folks in this courtroom. You can do that, today is Friday, you
can do it over the weekend, okay? Make sure you sit down with them when you go over that draft.
When you are doing the draft if there are things that Ms.Holm does not agree with, make your list and
make her list. If she says that’s just too much, I want to know, because it will tell me what good
judgment she has. Because at this point I hear some good judgment and some not so good judgment.
Now this list will be a lot more specific than just the normal you gotta do this, you gotta do that. You all
still, uh…are you all still wanting to require a psych eval? I’m not saying ——————I’m just saying
doing you want it?
(female voice) —————-psychological, I’ve heard that he is in treatment.
Judge: All right. The Savannah…uh..does your….you were prescribed medicine from Savannah
Counseling. Is that who gave your medicine prescriptions?
Christian: That’s not my latest, where I got my latest medicine from.
Judge: Who writes up your prescriptions for you, Mr. Holm?
Christian: A lady in New Hampshire.
Judge: So ——————-after Arizona?
Christian: That’s before Arizona.
Judge: So New Hampshire, Arizona, what was it Florida, Georgia? How did that work?
Danielle: No, we went from New Hampshire down to Florida, over to Colorado, Arizona, back to
Judge: Okay. Where did you put that camper?
Danielle: The car in Montgomery.
Judge: I don’t know the camper…didn’t you have a car and camper at one point?
Danielle: No, we had a car.
Judge: Never had a camper?
Danielle: No, we had a 10 person canvas tent that we…
Judge: You towed it behind the car?
Danielle: We had everything in the car in a little trailer in the back of the car carrying all of our stuff.
Judge: Oh, hold on. Did you have a car with it inside the four doors of the car or did you have a pull
trailer with it behind the car?
Christian: Pull trailer.
Danielle: We had a little pull trailer.
Judge: Well I call it, let’s just call it a tent camper. You towed it, right?
Christian: It was a utility trailer behind the car.
Judge: You towed it.
Judge: Well you dropped it before you stored your car, didn’t you?
Christian: Well as we were traveling across the states…
Judge: Just a simple yes or no.
Danielle and Christian: Yes.
Judge: Did you drop it before you stored your car?
Judge: Thank you. All right, so you dropped your tent and your camper. That would be considered your
home place, correct?
Christian: No, no. We still had our canvas tent. We still had all that in the vehicle.
Judge: Did you put the tent in the backseat of the car?
Danielle and Christian: Yes.
Judge: Okay. How big is the tent?
Danielle: Well when it folded up, it’s…
Judge: No, I want to know how big it is to live in.
Danielle: Ten persons.
Christian: 16 foot, ten foot…I mean it’s a ten person tent.
Judge: So you can put ten people in it?
Danielle: And we had cots and foam mattresses.
Judge: All that in your car?
Judge: So you basically dropped a trailer and converted your car into a home on wheels.
Christian: Yeah, we were trying to free ourselves from possessions and it took time to do that.
Judge: Who, who, who,who is the proponent of losing all of your possessions in order to live naturally?
Who, who, who founded that philosophy?
Judge: Are you sure about that?
Danielle and Christian: Yes.
Judge: Okay. Okay.
Judge: Are you sure it’s not St. Francis of Assisi? You sure it wasn’t his philosophy and theology?
Christian: I’ve never heard of who that is. I don’t know who that is?
Judge: You’ve never heard of St. Francis of Assisi?
Danielle: We’re not Catholic.
Judge: Oh goodness.
****(Did the Holms just fail another religion test?)
Christian: Uh…could you explain who that is?
Judge: No. He’s got some good stuff. You ought to read it.
Judge: All right. I’m not Catholic either. So just to pick at you a little bit, you feel like Jesus is your
inspiration for selling all you have and living without?
****(I thought he didn’t want to discuss religion, or academics, or legal matters?)
Danielle: Can you explain to me why this has anything to do with our son being away from us right
Judge: Well, your husband made his religion a big point when I first started talking to him, so I am just
asking. I want to look inside your mind just a little bit. You want me to know what you think and how
you feel about things?
****(You previously stated you didn’t care HOW Christian feels about anything when he asked for his
constitutional rights. Which is it? Can’t have it both ways.)
Christian: Yes. We feel we want to follow the way of Jesus.
Judge: Okay. Do you think he’s….I’m not mocking you. I’m asking you. Do you think he is the one who
proposed selling all you have and living simple?
Danielle: Jesus said get rid of all your possessions and come follow me.
Judge: Okay. Do you know where that’s at in the scriptures?
Danielle: I can find it real quick if you want me to.
Judge: No, I probably know where it is.
Christian: There is actually a few places of it.
Judge: More than one.
Danielle: And that doesn’t mean that when we need shelter we are not going to get it or when we need a
hospital we are not going to call 911. We are going to do everything that we can to live within society
today within trying to get closer to the way.
Judge: All right. I like it.
Christian: Because we have the common sense of the judicial system that’s put in place now.
Judge: Oh. You trying to warm up to me now.
Danielle: We’re just speaking…
Christian: We’re speaking truth.
Judge: Okay. All right. Let me see what else am I going to do. All right. I guess in trying to figure out
what this status conference is going to lead to I want to make sure that everyone is clear on what their
respective responsibilities are for when I come to a final decision about this. So, you got a list. You’re
gonna go over it, you can do it today with her. Just, hey, run through some stuff. I’m like you over here
when I ————–for the record, Stephanie, for the Department of Human Resources. Whether they
like it or not they do have the responsibility to take care of this child and make sure everything is good
with him. I’m not asking them to agree with your religion or philosophies of life or anything like that,
but they have to do the essence of what a child needs for security, protection, provision and all that sort
of stuff which you say you provided. That’s awesome. That’s I’m proud of you for that.
Judge: But the bad news is, if you don’t convince the folks who now have legal custody, you’re not
going to find I turn him loose.
Christian: Well we filed some custody motions and trying to explain the mal intent.
Judge: Right. I gotcha. Yeah. Well, not answering questions does not help.
Christian: We are doing as best as we can.
Judge: No, no. I beg to differ. I would beg to differ.
Judge: When a man who has the capacity to make a decision because of the department that they
represent, has the ability to say, Hey, we will concede certain things and he is trying to ask you where
you live and he gets no answer…
Christian: Right. Because they came to us with false accusations on a petition.
Judge: I wouldn’t have cared if I were you.
Christian: I do.
Judge: I wouldn’t have cared. You know why? Because I would be more interested in getting my son
****(This guy sounds EXACTLY like that facebook person name Steven Allen, doesn’t it? It is almost
as though I have talked with him beforehand in comments.)
Christian: I’m more interested in that we are dealing with people who are acting out of color of law
within the judicial system.
Judge: It tells me, Mr. Holm, that your wife has a little bit better insight in how to get your son back
than you do.
****(Divide and conquer. They are united in their defense and speak as one voice. Apparently the
judge hasn’t noticed, or maybe he has.)
Judge: Maybe you all should have a family gathering and a little prayer time together and decide what
philosophical positions you all are going to take to get this child back. You want to tell windmills with
your faith and constitution and religion? Go ahead. I’m more concerned about roofs over people’s
heads, food, clothing, shelter, and medicine to make sure they have a healthy, happy, normal life. You
can philosophy with them all you want once you get him back, but you’re not going to get him back
until you do the basic stuff. You can educate them all day long without your philosophies, religions,
Christian: Oh, I don’t have any philosophies. I completely agree with you. All I’m stating is that the
reason why we are here today is all on lies.
Christian: It’s because of lies on a petition.
Judge: Well, I will just say to you unapologetically that I would respectfully disagree with your
thoughts about that and leave it at that. That will make you feel a little bit better, won’t it? Not that you
doubt that. Now when I’m saying that, I’m pointing over there at the Department of Human Resources.
Now the guardian is going to be helpful. The department will continue to be helpful. The ultimate goal
is to reunify you with your son.
Danielle: I hope so.
Judge: Trust me. I want no more than that and no quicker than I can get it. I can’t do it without, I’m
pointing to you, Mom, because I’m not sure about Dad. You need to do whatever you can as you’ve
already done and make sure that all of the decision makers, like it or not, are able to weigh in on the
progress that you’ve made toward having the child back. I hate that you had him taken from your side. I
don’t think it’s the fault of the department.
Danielle: He was actually taken from my breast.
Judge: There is a difference of opinion about that.
****(Yes, whether you are asking one of the security guards or the lying officer who did the taking.)
Judge: You know, whether it was latched or not latched, you know.
Christian: He has actually testified that he was.
Judge: She said it was latched. They said it wasn’t.
Danielle: The hospital security guard he said that he was.
Christian: He said he was.
Judge: Well, he never testified.
Christian and Danielle: Yes, he did.
Christian: You don’t have that?
Judge: The hospital guard testified?
Danielle: Two hospital security guards testified at the dependency.
Judge: What’s his name?
Danielle: Chuck Hayworth.
Christian: We would like to ask if we could have transcripts so we can verify that you’ve heard the
Judge: What don’t you go out and make provision for your son before you start making any demands on
this trial here, okay? Why don’t you go out and do your job and get your son back, and I’ll be a lot more
patient with you? I’m not that patient with you, because you know what? Your mind is not right about
this case. When it gets right, I’ll help your wife to get you all’s child back and she can temper your
thoughts about this whole matter.
****(His words anger me too much to comment.)
Judge: I’m not going to do anything to help you that much right now. I’m more interested in her. She
seems to have a little bit level head about this. Don’t get on my bad side. I’m your best friend.
Christian: I’m only being objective. That’s all.
Judge: No, you’re not. You’re being delusional which is what they are concerned about over here.
****(You are delusional if you believe in any constitutional or religious rights or expect officers of the
state not to lie against you. Perhaps this judge is correct. So, what do we do now? We fight for the
constitution and defend this nation against this kind of tyranny.)
Danielle: He does not have delusions.
Christian: I don’t have delusions.
Judge: I want you to defend him. You should if you love him.
Danielle: Yes, he does not have delusions and paranoia, and schizophrenia like you’re saying.
Judge: I’m not sure but he’s—————————–with this case because the real reality is you ought
to be doing things to provide for your son.
Danielle: And we are.
Judge: And you haven’t told anybody about it.
Christian: We have the shelter case hearing and we had the lease agreement, we had all the necessities,
and our child was not returned.
Danielle: And it was testified by somebody that donated things…
Judge: Too many unanswered questions in that shelter care hearing.
Christian: I guess lack of evidence and facts too.
Judge: Yeah, yeah. I probably wouldn’t want to do either at that point, but the dependency case. That
was a real showdown. That would have been where you needed to step up. Say, Allison. Here we are.
Here is what we got. You know what? He probably would have been back by now.
Christian: I think we had plenty of testimony that said there was no child endangerment…
Judge:———————————not much proof. As soon as you give it to me
Christian: The burden of proof…
Judge: Get your lists…
(female voice) I have two things really quickly while we are all here.
Judge: All right.
(female voice) I do have a copy of the 911 recording as ordered with certification. I tried to make
copies for everyone but I couldn’t get it to copy. I can certainly do that. I didn’t know if you wanted me
to leave this in the court with you or say something about it, but I have that today. The parents have
listened to this.
Judge: Gotcha. Now listen to me. I can wrap this up pretty quick. If you don’t like the way I’ve handled
this here today, file something, file a law suit, whatever. I can recuse also. This can drag on for another
two months and you can come back and espouse about the constitution and your religion. In the
meantime I would suggest you get on board with what…
Danielle: Can we have something where we can subpoena our own phone records because we’re
Judge: Ma’am? You just dismissed a lawyer that could get all that done for you.
Danielle: He wants to hear our phone call.
Christian: What we are trying to say is the records…
Judge: Now listen. I’m gonna accept your word for it..
****(You haven’t accepted their word for anything else. Why suddenly accept their word for this?)
Danielle: And I have pictures…
Judge: That’s fine. Park that and give it to Allison. She’ll make sure…
Danielle: We did, actually.
Judge: I’m not your lawyer but on behalf of the baby child I will allow her to look at it, let them peruse
it, accept it for what it’s worth. I was very concerned. I’m glad that somebody made a call to 911. It
shows me that somebody reached out when push came to shove literally. A bad choice of
words—————————but when push came to shove somebody made the call. She could have
died. You know I have a hard time with that, Mr. Holm. You could have lost her and baby boy, Holm.
Christian: Okay. I recognize that we have differences of belief. All I ask is that equality of law is
Judge: No problem. All right. What else we need?
(female voice): I do have…you asked for a written verification, so I have it. I can just disperse that to
everybody while we are here.
Judge: You want to read it?
(female voice): It…It’s up to you.
Judge: Read it. Make it part of the records.
(female voice): Okay. The undersigned has been appointed as Guardian Ad Litem of the minor child
sent at the shelter care hearing. The undersigned currently has concerns for the safety and well being of
the minor child, primarily relating to housing and mental health of the parents. One of the initial
allegations from the Department of Human Resources was the parent’s lack of adequate shelter for a
newborn infant. At this time, no independent assessment of the parent’s appropriate or inappropriate
shelter can be made. The parents report that they have appropriate housing as of Feb. 2, 2017, showed
pictures to the undersigned of their home. The parents have not provided an address or allowed the
undersigned to visit their home. The undersigned has offered to visit the parent’s home with an
independent investigation without revealing the parent’s address to the department. The department also
has mental health concerns on the part of the father and makes allegations as to whether the mother can
properly recognize mental health issues of the father to protect the minor child. The father’s testimony
at the shelter care hearing revealed that he receives a social security disability check for his selfreported
depression and ADHD. The father also admitted that he was prescribed medications by a
physician for these diagnoses but removed himself from these medications without a physician’s order.
Mental health records reveal a different diagnosis then what the father reported through his testimony…
****(No, they do not. This is one of the constantly repeated lies.)
(female voice): ….at the initial hearing.
Judge: Thought he was a truth ———-sayer? Well, wait a minute, you mean the records are different
than what his testimony was?
(female voice): Yes, and I further explain a little bit of that because…they…the father has told me things
Judge: Wait. Maybe jive with it?
(female voice): …that present his side of the story.
Judge: Okay, he give his side.
(female voice): Yes.
Judge: Well, now he wants everything to be equal and everybody be truthful. And his testimony is
different than what is happening in the medical record?
Christian: I did not lie. No, it’s just that all the evidence isn’t there.
Danielle: They don’t have a record. They don’t have everything.
Judge: Where do you need it to come from? Where do you need it? Where is it at?
Danielle: We have it.
Judge: Well where it is?
Danielle: Where is what? Right here.
Judge: The medical records.
Judge: Copy it. Make sure everybody here gets…
Christian: Hold on…Let’s hold on one second.
Judge: Well, she says you have it all.
Christian: Yeah, but I don’t…I don’t…..I don’t feel that we need to a….
Judge: I don’t care about your feelings
****(You don’t want to know how he thinks or feels anymore? Things change fast.)
Judge: I don’t care.
Christian: Yeah. I understand.
Judge: You got the record?
Christian: Yeah, but we’re not going to introduce them to the court…
Judge: Why not?
Christian: Because the burden of proof is on DHR, not us.
Judge: You stay by yourselves…
Christian: Do what now?
Judge: You stay up in the woods by yourselves. Would you like that?
Christian: I don’t understand. I don’t understand what you are saying.
Judge: Let me make it clear. Stay in the woods by yourself, you and her. No child. You understand that,
Christian: I hear you but I don’t understand what you are saying.
Judge: You want your child back?
Judge: Copy the records and make sure everybody gets them. Clear?
Christian: I hear you.
Judge: I didn’t ask you that. I said do you understand?
Christian: Yeah, I hear what you are saying….
Judge: I will say it again, Mr. Holm.
Judge: Copy the records. Make sure everybody gets one if you want your child back.
Christian: Is that an order?
Judge: Unfortunately, I’m in this, like it or not. I will be making a final decision. You need to do what I
call accommodation. ————-It’s like chicken noodle soup. If the records are what they are, what
difference does it make who has them? We are all going to get into them.
Judge: And the quicker the better so you get baby boy back. Why do you want to delay this?
Christian: Because since day 1 when Stacey Jackson walked into our hospital room and we were trying
to be in compliance…
Judge: They got stuck with this case so they have to do what’s appropriate…
Christian: And…but Stacey Jackson didn’t finish her assessment that night when she came in…
Danielle: She spent fifteen minutes…
Christian: She spent fifteen minutes, I asked her what was the most naturalist way we can live without
being harassed by the state, and she…
Judge: Well, you about to get to make a list.
Christian: All right.
Danielle: Four months later.
Christian: At the expense of our child.
Judge: Well, I can’t help that, I just…
Danielle: We’ve been asking for this list for four months.
Judge: Well, now you are going to get it. Aren’t you glad you are here today?
Christian and Danielle: No.
Judge: I didn’t think you would say yes. It was a rhetorical question. All right, so, the list…
(female voice): Do you want me to finish this?
(female voice): Okay, I was just checking. While mental health diagnosis do not prevent a parent from
being able to effectively parent a child in the eyes of the undersigned, a person with a mental health
diagnosis should keep current with the advice of his or her treating physician in order to insure
successful treatment in their ability to care for a child. The father has reported that he has been seen by
a different physician since the day of the records obtained by the department, and received a different
diagnosis. The father self reports that at this time that he is not under the care of a physician as his
symptoms have improved through managing his diet, through exercise and natural methods. The
undersigned has not reviewed or been provided with any additional medical records to either confirm
or deny these statements. The undersigned wants nothing less than a successful reunification with baby
and parents in this case.
Judge: I’m going have you read that part again. Are you all listening to this?
Christian: We’re listening.
Judge: That last sentence, I want you to listen to it.
(female voice): The undersigned wants nothing…
Judge: You know who the undersigned is, right?
(female voice): Me.
Judge: It’s her.
(female voice): I want nothing less than a successful reunification of baby and parents in this case. I
would like to be able to visit the home of the parents and have the father to submit to an evaluation, and
by a physician, counselor, mental health professional of his choosing to ensure his mental health
diagnosis were being met or being appropriately managed prior to the child being returned to the
parents. At this time my recommendation would be that the child remain in the custody of the
Department of Human Resources, and be an adjudicated dependent with the department being ordered
to continue to provide reunification efforts for the parents. Furthermore, no recent issues have been
reported to me in reference to visitation. I would recommend additional hours per week visitation for
the purposes of bonding between the parents and the infant minor child.
Judge: How long do you have know that you all get to see him?
Danielle: Two hours a week. And our visits were taken away for five weeks.
Judge: I saw…saw that. That’s sad. That’s gonna work both ways. That’s one of those times when
someone just stuck to their pride and don’t want to do right to see him.
Danielle: Wait, I’m tired. Say that again?
Judge: I’d want to suck up a little pride in order to do what it took to see my son.
Danielle: They didn’t allow us.
Judge: Well, if they didn’t, that’s a travesty, but either way we are gonna fix that. 2 to 3 hours out of a
week is really not good enough to be ——–for reunification————————time. How much
manpower you got over your way?
Christian: I don’t have any pride.
(female voice): I’m not the attorney on this case.
(different female voice): I was informed that they could have had visitation at one time but there were
some issues at the department. They had to actually hire security, so they had 12 hours at one time…
(different female voice): That’s what’s been explained to me…
Judge: That’s about 12 times higher than what people used to get.
(different female voice): There were threatening behaviors towards the workers and they felt unsafe
and had to hire security…
Judge: I remember hearing about that. I listened to some of that testimony. Now did you…now did that
34 page bloody letter get made a part of the file?
(female voice): It’s in evidence.
Danielle: There wasn’t a 34 page bloody letter. There was one of manufacturers of origin with our
blood drop showing our DNA because of false accusations…
Judge: Ms. Holms…
Danielle: It was one page.
Judge: Do you think I’m serious about that?
****(I thought he was. How would we know when he is serious about anything? It all seems to be a
cruel game to him as he mocks and ridicules while thoroughly enjoying himself at their expense.)
Judge: I know it wasn’t a bloody letter. You signed off with a bloody thumbprint. I got it.
Danielle: It was just one page.
Judge: I know. I’m not fussing at her. It’s okay. She’s fine. I don’t think it was a bloody letter. I’m just
saying you sent a letter that was signed with a thumbprint.
Danielle: Because of false accusations of them not knowing who we are.
Judge: Whatever reason. I think you should have taken the time to uh…you know…build a cabin in the
woods…writing all that stuff…
****(They never planned on staying in Alabama. They were just passing through and stopped to camp
at a campground.)
Danielle: Well, actually…
Christian: I think that our child shouldn’t have been kidnapped under false accusations.
Judge: Yeah. Well, then it brings us to this place here today. We’re gonna make progress and make it
quick if you…if you…if you want to.
Christian: Of course, we do. That’s why we are here today.
Judge: Okay. I know you are. I like a lot of what you said.
Christian: That’s why we’ve taken the time to file things, that’s why we’ve taken the time to do the
motions, why we’ve….
Judge: Every time you file something the courts sets things down for hearings, and they usually set a
few weeks out, so note that whenever you file….—————–file whatever you want and I’ll hear
whatever you want, but you all…this is not the only case I got so you all will have to get in line with
everybody else to even get to your case, then you might want to slow down in your motion filling.
Danielle: Well, we————————-but they have motions too, so…
Judge: I——————————————, at least some of them, but I don’t have any motions in front
of me at this point, do I? I just have to make a decision about how to get this little boy back and with
enough safety and security….oh, by the way, you should know you just don’t get him back and take off.
You understand that, don’t you?
Christian: We don’t have freedom to migrate?
Judge: That would be a no.
Christian: So we are bound to Alabama now?
Judge: For a little while. You’ll get used to it. You’ll like it. You’re gonna be a ————-to your son.
Danielle: I actually feel..
Judge: Get your….get your feet on the ground, you know, get some…
Christian: We don’t like it here.
Judge: Yeah, well, no. My mom didn’t like it here and she ended up staying here 50 years, so.
Christian: Yeah, so…
Judge: Now look. Having heard her recommendation you still want to make a list?
Danielle: We need it…
Christian: We need something that is official on paper stating what is necessary to have for us as far as
whatever they need for us where we are going to live at, what their standards are…uh…
Judge: Okay. No problem.
Danielle: Because this is why. We don’t want somebody coming out to our house and then twisting
something and saying, well,…
Judge: You got a phone? You got a picture with video capacities?
Christian: Are you asking me?
(female voice): Yes, judge.
Judge: No. I just need a quick rundown when you get out there, so when we come back here I can look
at the phone. I don’t have to look over your shoulder. You don’t have to make a production of it, just
video what they got. —————————–out there. We’ll look. I could go out there today. You got
Christian: Do we have lunch ready? Uh, you are welcome to come to lunch anytime you want to.
Judge: You promise?
Judge: You all won’t mind if I show up out there? Okay?
Christian: Uh…for lunch…for lunch on days when it’s not on proceedings to this.
Judge: Okay, we’ll just shoot the bull about other stuff. Okay.
Christian: All right.
Judge: You all don’t mind if I do that? Okay. I’d probably enjoy it. I need to get away from this here
now and then. All right, so what else we need?
Christian: Um…(whispers…no, he just trapped me in that) Your honor? We would like to acknowledge
that it’s our rights to not have our address to be shown unless you are ordering for it to be shown, unless
you are ordering it for to come out.
Judge: You see, if I had a son that I would take good care of, I’m not saying it’s you. It’s them. Now, I
would want to leave him with you. I mean, I like you, I was going to say 90%, maybe 80% of what I’m
hearing from you all now. I like it. It’s good. That would be my ———————-, but there are a few
things ——————that I would have a concern about, and I would —————–those things before
I would drop my son off with you.———————kind of satisfy on my end…
Danielle: Can you…
Judge: You can do it quicker if I get to know you…
Christian: Right, but you have a right to parent for your child as we have a right to parent.
Judge: Do what?
Christian: You have a right to parent to choose where your child stays where I do as well…we do..
Judge: Absolutely. So before I sent my son to live with you, you know what I would do? I’d have to
drive out there and see where you lived.
Christian: Sure, but this is our child, the one we are speaking about.
Judge: Well, it is, but right now this child unfortunately is caught in this legal ——————–
Christian: Under false accusations.
Judge: Yeah. Whatever the reason is. Whatever the reasons are he is in the file, unfortunately and
Judge: For you all and for him. Let me ask you this, do you think that I don’t have enough to do that I
have to manage this one file, to have the time and energy to have to spend on this. They have to care
for a hundred, a hundred children out there who have varying degrees of needs.
Christian: We agree with that.
Danielle: ———————————-in foster care and they are not focusing on those kids.
Judge: They are doing what they have to do with the ones who are in front of them.
Danielle: There’s people on drugs that have kids, not…
Christian: We’re not drug addicts. We’re not alcoholics. We don’t have bankruptcies. We have none of
those things and those people do have their children, but we don’t have our child.
Judge: Mr. Holm?
Judge: I agree with you but you know what? Those people and those children aren’t in front of me.
Judge: I care about all those people, but I don’t care because I can’t make a decision about all those
people today. Today, I’m talking to baby boy Holm with his advocate, legal advocate, and mom and dad
who need him back home. No question about that now. He should..
Danielle: And we need him…
Judge: Because you missed out on some very valuable bonding time.
Christian: Very valuable.
Judge: You’re preaching to the choir. mine fell asleep nearly every day telling stories nearly every night,
every night of their lives until the youngest one finally said, Dad, we gotta go through this story telling
again? I said well good, I’m sleepy. Go to bed anyway. Every night.
Christian: Yes. We won’t have that. That’s been taken from us.
Judge: Well, it’s just been 3 or 4 months. I bet you can make it up.
Christian: I hope so.
Judge: At this young a stage, he’ll quickly catch on who his mom and dad are.
Christian: We hope so.
Judge: It won’t be a bit of a problem, so, now let’s talk a bit about a couple more practical matters. I like
what your responses were in the shelter care, you know do whatever it takes, ——————————-.
I got the what I call warm-up responses, good responses, what I felt were appropriate responses at the
shelter care. At the dependency case, not so much.
Judge: So I got to figure out who you are.
Danielle: There’s reasons for that.
Christian: Yes. There’s reasons for that.
Danielle: There is a reason that we…
Christian: We wanted to be in compliance with everything. We actually were the ones that called the
social worker into the hospital to make sure…
Judge: For whatever reason, you bombed on the shelter care. I mean you bombed on the dependency
Danielle: Because we are afraid of everything being used against us as it has been and being lied
Christian: Yeah. We had mal intents.
Judge: That aint what I think, trust me.
Danielle: It has happened.
Christian: It has been happening.
Judge: You gonna dwell on that or are you going to go on looking forward?
Danielle: Well, it’s all part of the picture.
Christian: It’s a part of it. It needs to be acknowledged.
Judge: That’s history.
Christian: Yeah, but we are here because of history.
Danielle: And it is still happening, the mal intent is still happening to us.
Judge: Okay. Okay. You all want to dwell on that?
Christian: We don’t want to dwell on anything. We are here today, not at our will. We are here because
we love our child and our child has been kidnapped from us.
Judge: —————–impatient. It hadn’t been too bad.
****(That is a subjective statement and it didn’t happen to you.)
Judge: The question I have is I’ve got to figure out exactly how you want to approach this Mr. Holms.
You can approach it like you did at the shelter care or you can approach it like you did at the
dependency hearing. Two different approaches. I like the shelter care approach. Hint. Hint. You with
me? You know, we are going to do whatever we need to do. Do I need to…who’s…who’s….let me ask
you this…you apparently have some connection with a mental health provider who does your
medicines. In order for you to keep compliant to get your social security check you have to have that
connection, don’t you?
Christian: I don’t uh…I don’t know anything about that.
Judge: All right, you have a prescription pill that you were given for your anxiety and depression?
Danielle: ADD and depression.
Judge: What did I say?
Judge: Oh I thought he said anxiety. Didn’t you at least mention the word anxiety one time.
Christian: I could have. Sometimes anxiety comes in, yeah but…
Judge: ADHD, depression, but now wait. Everytime I walk through those doors before I come into this
courthouse I have a little touch of anxiety.
Christian: Who doesn’t?
Judge: But anyway, Anxiety, ADHD, depression. You get pills for it or did get pills for it.
Christian: I’ve been prescribed that, yes.
Judge: You quit taking them a few months back.
Christian: That’s correct.
Danielle: He kept trying to come off because it was giving him sensations of things that weren’t…
Judge: I’m with you on that. Just so you could get your mind right.
Danielle: So exercise and diet helps a lot.
Judge: Okay. I like it. I’m with you on that. I’m 40 lbs large but I’m going to get there. So, somebody’s
name had to appear on that pill bottle.
A doctor. Who was it?
Christian: Um….I don’t recall right now.
Judge: That’s fine. Do you happen to have any leftover capsule bottles like at the house or trailer or
whatever, camper…? Do you have any leftover prescription bottles you could look on…?
Christian: I think we do.
Judge: Tell…put that on your list Mrs. Allison, and the reason I am asking, I am not just trying to be
nosey. I didn’t know we needed to just move forward from that person and he might say, hey, you know
what? Christian, now I have seen him for a long time. You know he—————-his depression and I
think the medicine has kinda helped him out a little bit or he might have grown out of the need for
them, you know?
Judge: Yeah. Definitely. Went past what do you need, states? I don’t know if they were life long issues
for you. I guess apparently there was some testimony about a pill addiction at one point. There was
some pain medicine addiction.
Christian: Nah, I never mentioned any of that. I never had…I don’t know what you are talking about
Judge: No memory of that?
Judge: No reference to it? No pain medicine addiction? Never had that?
Judge: Okay. Fine. Well let’s…we can either find it….is that true? You all recall a testimony about that in
(female voice): There was some testimony about that.
Judge: From him? He admitted to it or not?
(female voice): I don’t …I don’t remember
Judge: He admit to it?
(female voice): I don’t recall. I don’t think he admitted to it.
Judge: Okay. It’s a long time ago so be that as it may. The question is…the reason I am asking these
questions is so we can find out what we need to back up, sorta back up to source one and find out what
that particular mental health professional says. At this point you know you might do you good. Hey, he
might say, you know I haven’t seen him in three or four months.
Christian: I think that we would like to assess the petition while we are here and while we have been
brought into court on the shelter case before we go any further…uh…we understand that the burden of
proof is on the petition.
****(Oh, Christian. You forgot, he doesn’t like that constitutional stuff. He runs his court his way. I’m
braced for hearing what comes next!)
Judge: Yeah, I got something for you.
Judge: The petition doesn’t go forward without certain information. That’s a need to know bit of
information for the court.
****(We get that. The state demands the cooperation of the accused in order to build a case AGAINST
us. Any representative of the state can accuse based on any “feeling” or “supposition” and BAM! You
are now in the fight of your life to keep from permanently losing your kids. Welcome to the new
Judge: So I need to know what your status is before I go forward with this.
(You need to know and the Holms are not required to assist you in your efforts to deprive them of their
child. Don’t we believe under the constitution that the defendant has the right to continue taking the 5th,
and that sufficient evidence must be gathered by the prosecution so it can be determined in advanced if
there is a case before they consider going to trial? Calling it civil court should not annul all
Constitutional rights of the accused.)
Christian: My status as far as what?
Danielle: Your mental health.
Judge: My mental health.
Christian: My..my..I’m speaking to you today just fine.
Judge: I’m not a mental health professional.
****(Surely you jest…You are a medical professional able to decide what is unsafe about home
delivery but unable to know what is equally unsafe about hospital delivery. You are a legal professional
able to decide about which defendant does not need constitutional rights. You are a Pastoral
professional able to decide whose religion is correct and who suffers from mental illness as a result of
their religious beliefs. You are a perfect parent able to decide how to raise your children with all of the
unknown factors involved with doing such, but you are unwilling to allow certain others the same right
to embark upon raising theirs. You are a husband who has plenty of advice about how to regard a wife,
but castigates another man before his. Why not be mental health professional while you are at it?)
Christian: Okay. All right, well…
Judge: I mean, I think I…one of my master’s degrees is in that background but I don’t plan to be a
mental health professional———–my hands on communication with you for several years or months
or how long you might have been in treatment or care. I’ve just seen you now for about two hours…
****(Impressive, isn’t it.)
Judge: I mean, I have no idea where you all or what you all are really about…
****(Nor would you any other average citizen. That’s why you refer to records and facts available.
There were plenty.)
Danielle: You are spending more time with us than the first original person who took our child away.
Judge: There you go.
Danielle: She spent fifteen minutes to make a mental health impression on him and she’s not a….
Judge: Okay. Well, the reason I am asking, I didn’t know and they want to know…they might be
glad to know whoever has given you this stuff so they would say, you know what? I think it was a
temporary thing for him. He had some issues with his first wife, I give it to him to get him to
kinda talk to help him with his ADHD and kinda help to get him focused, get him out of his funk,
his depression, and now he seems to be rolling, cause he’s gotta…
Danielle: There was only one person he saw, though.
Christian: So, I think what we want to focus on is that….
Judge: I know what you want to focus on..
Christian: Yeah, that..we want to focus on the evidence of facts of why we are here today as far as
Judge: Mr. Holms. I’ve heard your case. I’ve listened to it for the last five days.
****(This is indicative of the seriousness of the state’s mistake.)
Judge: I was making sure I finished it and I stayed up until about 11:30 last night and listened to
the last tape.———————————————–
Christian: We appreciate that…
Judge: You all know where I am going with the order. It’s just going to be a no-brainer at this
stage but now we go forward. Disposition of shelter care, dependency disposition. Do you know
what that means?
Christian: Can you explain?
Judge: A shelter care is kind of an immediate ‘Oh my gosh! We got a major problem!’ you know,
and so you have a hearing on that. And so you make a little bit of progress in trying to perceive
what is best for the child at that point. Not all perfect decisions are being made at that point, but
decisions are being made just on what kind of ————information can be gathered. Then you
have a major hearing called a dependency case and that is to determine whether or not this child
is completely dependent. And you don’t think it is. I get that. They think it is and after listening to
the testimony I am not going to say what I am going to order but I am very concerned at this
level, but I haven’t made a decision about whether the child is a dependent. He could be
dependent, but under the law I could still place that child back in your home (snaps fingers) like
****(There it is, folks. Government power from the bench to license all parents before they have
the right to raise their children and subject to the state’s dictates exactly how that child should be
raised. Since there are no first amendment rights, according to this judge and proven to be true
in the actions of others throughout the states, freedom of religion and choice of education is also
subject to the dictates of the state. Medical freedom has already been rescinded in the many
medical kidnap cases both prevalent and increasing.)
Judge: But I’m going to be satisfied about a few things that I’m concerned about. Your treatment is one
of them. It’s been a major issue. Why you want to resist that, I don’t know. If you need help, hey, admit
it. I need help a little…
****( If nothing else, I think America has learned doing that will prove to be a fatal flaw for the future
of the rest of their life if they ever seek help from a “mental health professional”.)
Christian: I don’t.
Danielle: He doesn’t.
Christian: All I’m asking is that our rights be upheld and that the burden of proof is on them.
Judge: I’m…I’m then….it absolutely is.
Christian: Okay. That’s all we are asking.
Judge: But I’m going to require it because I think this is what is best for the child. I’m not going to turn
the child back to have a repeated nightmare.
Christian: Say but do you have evidence or facts that it was a nightmare?
Judge: A child in a womb on the top of a hill in October with a couple onesies and some other
****(So based upon false assumptions that the state had and with the weather being very warm
in their traveling-through Alabam camping experience, we must now be aware that camping in
Alabama while pregnant with a viable fetus will get it removed from custody if it should have the
misfortune to be born during the visit.
Danielle: That is false.
Judge: You were up there! They have the————————-
Danielle: We had a couple of onesies and I had a large backpack full of baby stuff in our car in
Montgomery in storage with the car seat and everything else in there.
Judge: Yeah! In and of itself that is a disaster waiting to happen. Wake up and smell the coffee!
Danielle: What did they do….What did they do 100 years ago?
Judge: We’re not in a 100 years ago. We live in 2017 now.
Danielle: God hasn’t changed.
Christian: So God was wrong back then?
Judge: My gosh. You all aint helping the case. All right. I’m doing my best to try to move forward
but I just keep getting road-blocked. Even with that we got a little bit. Um…it will be ordered
since I gave you an opportunity to let you know the easy way to do it, if you don’t want to do it
the easy way, it will be ordered to do a mental health evaluation. Uh…whose the…whose
the….whose the mental health evaluator?
(female voice): Um…before we were using Lucille———————. They expressed that they do not
want to use her, your honor.
Judge: Well, you know, when a train runs onto a track they usually have one engineer. Right? Let me
illustrate something. This is a train. This is a train. You with me? It’s going down the track. Who do you
think is going to be the engineer?
Christian: I guess it could be anybody.
Christian: It’s got to be somebody that’s qualified for the train.
Judge: Right. Well, who is running this file right here?
Christian: I would have to have more evidence of facts of what that file is?
Judge: Do you…well…are you holding it?
Christian: No, I’m not.
Judge: Is Ms. Miller holding it?
Christian: Your honor, I don’t understand what this has to do with our child being kidnapped.
Judge: It has to do with everything, Mr. Holm.
Judge: It has to do with persons who are making final decisions in this case…that’s the one you want
Christian: Yeah, but I feel like….I feel like we are getting a lot of hypothetical questions here and not
Judge: No, Mr. Holm. We are trying to find out a way to get your son back.
****(These may actually be true words. The state is in a pickle and they can’t figure out how to
undo everything. I notice this judge, along with everything else, speaks in code in his efforts to
communicate his truth of the matter. Unfortunately, without rule of law being followed there is
no foundational structure to be able to trust.)
Judge: That aint hypothesis. That’s reality. The engineer who is holding this file will be me. We go
down that track. I like the fact that you wish ————-one sorta thing but it won’t happen. You will do
what the court tells you you are going to do before you get your son back. The better you can explain
that to your husband, ma’am…
Danielle: The court hasn’t asked us to do anything at this point.
Judge: Hey listen, he will submit to a mental health evaluation, and not necessarily Ms. Bodenheimer.
Now even if you….I could just rub it in your noses and say, hey I don’t care if you like it or not go back
to her. That’s fine. I’ll get somebody else. Who is the next one up? Dr. Dan Mowery.
Christian: If uh…
Judge: I gave you a chance to tell me who it was. You didn’t weigh in on it so I…
Christian: I was going to see if you was just going to protect rights. That’s all I was going to do.
Judge: Well, who do you like? I mean, give me a couple mental health professionals. Who do you like?
Christian: Who do I like? Uh, I could…We would have to find somebody that we like that we feel is not
going to be biased.
Danielle: We’re not from here, so…
Judge: Come on, now hey! How many days you need to find someone?
Danielle: Depends on the person and how far out they are. I don’t…
Judge:———————————–in this area, you know?
Christian: So, are you…can you tell us why you are wanting an evaluation, why?
Judge: Cause I want to know what’s inside your mind, so that I can determine whether or not you are
able to make a rational decision, so that I can…
Christian: And that is based off of what evidence did you have to where you…
Judge: The evidence that you have housed yourself before he was born up in the woods at his peril, you
know, whether you think he was in peril or not…at his peril.
****(This makes me so mad I can’t even comment…Camping is illegal, home births are illegal,
traveling through Alabama is illegal, religious beliefs are proof of mental illness requiring monitoring
and state involvement before children may be kept…Oh, wait, this can’t be true. But, yes it is. And talk
about being in peril, I think the Holm family is in peril from the illegal actions of the child traffickers in
Anniston, Alabama, and especially from this judge whether he thinks he holds them in peril or not.)
Danielle: He wasn’t even born yet.———————–
Christian: We were at a Cheahas State Park where they go camping and they have all the amenities that
Judge: No they don’t Mr. Holm.
****(Lies. If they did not then they couldn’t be licensed as a state park for camping.)
Christian: Well, I would say that the state park is not correct for allowing camping.
Danielle: No babies and children should be allowed to camp there then.
Judge: Oh my Gosh.
Christian: How is that not true?
Judge: Oh I think…I don’t know…I..I’m mostly concerned about …I’m not concerned about babies and
children camping in state park; I’m concerned about bringing your son back.
****(So it is perilous for the Holm to camp with their newborn at Cheaha State Park but not for any
other babies and children who do. Desperate treatment discrimination or unequal application of the law
to discriminate based on religion, i.e. religious beliefs being declared mental illness to remove child,
but children of everyone else are left alone. Violation of equal protection clause of the 14th
Christian: And all we are asking is just the evidence of facts of what you are basing a mental evaluation
Judge: Well, the records say that you have taken yourself off of your medicines. You apparently
followed the doctor’s order to take the medicine, didn’t you?
Christian: I went in there myself to see the doctor.
Danielle: He asked for medicine.
Christian: And we are allowed to make the decision.
(female voice): Please talk one at a time. I cannot hear. I am sorry.
Christian: I chose to go see the doctor myself.
****( I hope everyone reading this learns that this is a luxury that can no longer be afforded in the
times that we live.)
Judge: Good for you.
Christian: So we are allowed…
Judge: Allowed help, and you followed his orders…
Christian: Yeah. We are allowed…right…and we are allowed to choose if we want to continue the
medication or not.
Judge: So, who was it?
Christian: I told you. I would try and find out that…
Judge: Okay. You come back and locate him wherever he is. You went to him to start with to get
medicine, right? So, did you get this—————-in Arizona?
Christian: But, is that what you are basing off of ordering an evaluation because of that?
Judge: Yeah. I need to have some closure on that.
Christian: Okay, and if we can show some type of certified records of my last visit, that would be good
enough for you?
Judge: If it said, you know what, I think Mr. Holm has accomplished a lot in these last several months
of treatment so that I am going to remove him from his medicine, and I will let him continue on his
merry way. No problem.
****(Forced medical treatment? That is worse than demanding private medical records. This is
Christian: Now, hold on now. If it shows my diagnosis and it states her opinion…it’s a her…
Judge: It’s a lady?
Christian: Yes. It is a lady….and it doesn’t say whether I need to continue or not continue, and if it’s
okay for someone to take them off of medication if they so choose, then are you saying that the last
certified records will be okay for you? That the last diagnosis, my last certified records?
(female voice): I guess what he is saying, he is trying to ask if his last certified record where he went to
a mental health professional.
Judge: Could be two years ago.
(female voice): That was four to six years ago—————-we would object to that.
Christian: No. This was actually recent.
(female voice): No, we need a -current psych evaluation.
Judge: Look, the decisions that brought you to the top of the mountain are important to me..what got
you there. It’s important to me and the decisions you made that allowed you to store your car in
Montgomery and walk apparently from Montgomery to Cheaha Mountain. How long did that take?
****(Decisions to follow Christ? That is a religious decision and religious decisions affects all of our
behaviors. It has been stated that the Holm’s religious beliefs are mental illness by officers of the court.
They are accused of delusional behavior because of their decision to follow Christ and in the manner
they chose to follow Him. Religious discrimination)
Danielle: Two months.
Judge: And you walked about 5 miles a day?
Danielle: Hard to say…
Judge: So who toted the tent? The ten person tent?
Danielle: He carried everything.
Christian: No, the ten person tent was left in the vehicle in Montgomery.
Judge: How’d you get the tent up at the campsite?
Christian: We had a different tent at that time.
Danielle: We had a different tent at that point. We had multiple tents.
Judge: Oh. Where did you get the Mt. Cheaha tent?
Danielle: We had it.
Christian: We had…it was a small…
Judge: Where did it come from?
Christian: From Wal-Mart.
Judge: From Wal-Mart?
Christian and Danielle: Yes.
Judge: So did you walk to Wal-Mart and walk back up the mountain?
Danielle: We took…
Christian: No, I just already had it. We were carrying it with me.
Danielle: Sometimes we would get rides and sometimes we would stay at a hotel.
Judge: So who dropped you off at top of Cheaha?
Danielle: Some woman that we met along the way. We met a lot of people along the way which is why
we did it. I wanted to help people and go to homeless shelters, serve people, …along the way.
Christian: We were missionaries.
Judge: Yeah. Well you are a missionary without an oversight board and you’re a missionary without a
theology, and you’re a missionary…
****(I am blowing a gasket over this statement. How dare he demand specific religious rules for
Christians whom God has set free and ordained to proclaim the good news to every creature. I have
been a missionary for 60 years, since I was seven years old and belonged to the junior missionary club
at a little church. I have never been under an oversight board nor have I had a theology, meaning
specific denomination. I am brand X Christian for Jesus all the way. How can he get away with this
religious discrimination in an American court of law? How dare he!)
Christian: We are here just to love people, that’s all. We don’t claim to have to have a title to love.
Judge: I know. Yeah. I’m a lover too. But unfortunately I gotta make a legal decision.
Christian: That’s all we are asking you is for equality of law.
Judge: So, give me the name. I’ll just end this real quick. Give me somebody. I don’t know
about————————-. Give me somebody I know.
(female voice): ———————————————–We got Dr. —————, we got Dr.
Judge: How about Dr. Wilson? ——————–He’s pretty common sense isn’t he? You know where
——————- County is? You all driving? You all got a car?
Christian: Did you say that that last record would be good enough or not? The certified record?
Judge: I want it, yes, but I want you to meet with Dr. Wilson. I think he’s a pretty straight shooter. You
Christian: We would like to find our own doctor so that we could have an unbiased opinion.
Judge: Okay, I’ll tell you what. You go find your own doctor but you also will see Dr.Wilson and if they
have competing opinions then we will be at a dilemma, won’t we? Now, I’ve got a question for you?
How long you think it will take you to round up that doctor?
****(So, what is the fear that this judge has? Other mental health professionals won’t go along with
their child trafficking scheme to keep the baby? To subject the parents to further control? The judge is
willing to consider more than one professional, but apparently there is a danger to allow an outsider to
enter an opinion. Discrimination)
Christian: I hope not long.
Judge: Yeah, well, it’s going to be a prerequisite.
Danielle: It’s not…
Judge: I want a clear list of groceries and stuff like that. A —————-list of groceries and other
things that you are going to actually see what you gotta have————. I’m going to have to have an
evaluation done. So, hey, have at it. Better hurry.
Christian: That just depends upon how long they say until they will see us. That’s all we can do.
Judge: Do you want one? The time is gonna burn until you get one. So that’s on you.
Christian: Well we don’t necessarily want one. We are being told that we have to have one.
Judge: No, ————–being told that you see Dr.Wilson.
Judge: You decided you want your own independent one. So if you wanted Dr. Wilson that could be for
sure, how could that take place?
Christian: We just don’t want…
(female voice): Your honor, we could get——————–a few weeks.
Judge: Okay. Ooo, this has been going on for months now because you refuse to go——————-
Christian: It wasn’t ordered to go.
Judge: Yeah.—————————————–Wasn’t there an ISP meeting where the mental health
guy was noted?
(female voice): Yeah. There was an ISP meeting. There was not a court order.
Judge: Oh. Goodness.
(female voice): They refused the services offered.
Christian: We will obey the court.
Judge: Okay. All right. Look. If you can’t find your own, as quick as you can we got to get that one
done so we at least have one. I don’t expect to have a major problem with it except for them to say,
man, he’s got some poor judgment, which I already know whether you like it or not…
****(1 Corinthians 1:18King James Version (KJV)
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it
is the power of God.)
Danielle: He doesn’t have poor judgment.
Judge: I know.
Danielle: He takes very good care of me and would be an amazing father.
Judge: He just about killed you…
****(Not true, but the town with their peculiar version of love and concern is sure giving it a good try.)
Danielle: He called 911 at the very time we needed to call 911.
Christian: Your honor, I ….I just about killed her?
Judge: Yeah, you just about killed her.
Christian: I don’t understand…I don’t understand your theory behind that.
Judge: You can’t figure out that a childbirth———————————-that she could openly
hemorrhage and die? You can’t understand that?
Christian: Your honor, that was both of our decision as one because of our religious beliefs.
Judge: If your a head of the household your—————-
Christian and Danielle: God is the head of the household.
Judge: Yeah, right. You keep believing that.
Christian: We do.
Judge: I hope you do, but you gotta comply until you get your child back.
Christian: Uh…we are going to obey the law.
Christian: Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s.
Judge: ——————–the engineer. That’s what you gotta do.
Christian: And we’re trying to obey the laws as best as we can here, but…
Judge: That won’t help.———————————–You know come on.
(female voice): We will ask them to do it as soon as they can.
Judge talking back and forth with female voice-unable to catch their words…
Judge: I got a really peculiar set of parents, you know…
Christian: (whisper) This is crazy…man. What’s going on?
Mr. Kirby: I wouldn’t have foreseen this coming.
Judge: Yeah, Ms. Holms, she’s a little bit co-dependent…————————-would be an
***(I thought the judge said he wasn’t a mental health professional. Is he changing his mind about that
Danielle: I thought you were not a mental health professional.
Christian: You sure are making a lot of accusations as for a judge as far as the expertise of mental
health and things like that.
Judge: I’m glad you noticed that. I don’t think——————————-enough.
Christian: All we have been asking is for equality of law here.
Judge: Tell you what. File a law suit. Get me off the case and waste another two or three months.
Christian: Why can’t you just be equal of law and act…?
Danielle: We feel like we are being discriminated against.
Judge: Ma’am, you know what? I don’t really care about your feelings. I’m here…
Danielle: I can tell.
Judge: I am here to do what’s best for your son and at this point you are not helping your case. You’re
not…your judgment is vastly impaired whether you are religious or devoted or whatever.
****(Truthfully, you are here to do what’s best for the state.)
Danielle: Based upon your opinion.
Christian: Because we were camping at Cheaha State Park.
Judge: You know what? It is my opinion because I am the judge, and I am entitled to it.
Danielle: But you are not a mental health to make these opinions a truth or a fact.
Judge: Absolutely. Did I make an opinion?
Danielle: An opinion.
Christian: You’ve made, yes.
Judge: What did I say?
Christian: You said that my wife was co-dependent. Was that just a minute ago? So…
Judge: Yeah. That is an observation.
Christian: Can you explain that?
Judge: Yeah. I can explain. That is an observation. It’s not about an evaluation.
Christian: Observations are opinions.
Judge: Yeah. Okay, I got an opinion that she is co-dependent on you. So what do you want to do about
this, Mr. Holm?
Christian: Well, we are husband and wife.
Judge: Right, good for you.
Danielle: We work together all the time.
Judge: Good for you. Good. You should. Very good. Stick together. Pray together.
Danielle: We do. Raise children together.
Judge: ——————–together. I’m all in. Absolutely.
Christian: All right.
Judge: So what? So what’s the point?
Christian: I don’t understand…I don’t understand what you are asking me right now.
Judge: So you made observations on me so what’s your point?
Christian: I haven’t…I haven’t made any observation. I was just calling out what you said.
Judge: Okay, so what good did it do?
Christian: Nothing. I’m just trying to be objective here because we are here trying to get our child.
Judge: Yeah, I want you to have him.
Christian: And we are speaking truth and we feel like we are getting more of an abrasive process here.
Christian: We are going up a hill with rocks coming down at us with the engineer.
Judge: Yeah. All right. Dr. Wilson, as soon as possible, a list of groceries, 911 tape, one final motion,
Mr. Kirby, I guess you won’t have to come back, file your thing, file your —————- and I’ll
————-you out————-what else?
(female voice): The one thing I would like to address with the court and this has been brought up at the
address when they were out in Cleburne is the confidentiality…
Judge: Now look. There has been some overlap between that confidentiality order and a gag order.
There is a lot of talk about that.
(female voice): I don’t know exactly what is. All I know is if anything is being taped, if anything is
going to be disseminated through any sort of, you know, I will state for the record that I do not give my
permission to be broadcast out on facebook. Anybody else in the courtroom that would like to state that
can also do so, but I want that on the record.
Judge: Okay. I gotcha. Look. I don’t have to issue a gag order. There is a law in Alabama that
these proceedings involving children are to be made and remain confidentially. Now, I will tell
you this. If you from this day forward, and when this case is all over with you can write a book. I
don’t really care, but while it is pending you know the law requires no one to discuss this case out
in the public forum.
****(So you pick and choose what law in America you wish to obey. Apparently those that favor
you and the state will be obeyed, those that favor the citizen, i.e. constitutional rights and
religious freedoms, you will not recognize. I understand and since you have the power to jail, you
get to become the tyrannical dictator over the masses. Not complicated.)
Judge: That’s just the law.
****(Well, let’s not get all academic…)
Judge: I may not really like that. I like the idea of hey, go out and run your mouth.
****(We use to call that freedom of speech and the right to petition the government over
Judge: You can run yours, they can run theirs. It’s called the court of public opinion. We don’t
offer it like that down here though. The law says that these hearings are to be kept confidential
for the benefit of minors. That’s why it’s in the juvenile code statute. We’re clear on that, right?
****(Minors have no benefit from this, but the state sure does!)
Christian: I hear you. I saw the law as protecting the family…
Judge: Now listen to me. Do you understand me?
Christian: I hear you. I hear what you are saying.
Judge: Let me predict what is going to happen to you. Mr. Holm is going to continue to assert all
these esoteric thoughts about things. He is going to ultimately be in non-compliance, the child
may ultimately never be brought back to him, he is going to ultimately do something criminal,
you know? He is going to ultimately be held in contempt. During his incarceration the
department is ultimately going to have to file termination. Somebody has to be raising this boy.
****(He is sharing the ULTIMATE plan that was in place from the beginning of this childtrafficking
Christian: Do what?
Danielle: How can you make predictions based on when things that have not happened?
Judge: I am 64.
Danielle: Are you psychic?
Judge: Are you?
Judge: Okay. All right, I am just saying until your attitude changes not much good is going to
befall your plight…
****(until you decide you kinda like the rapist, he will continue to visit you, and then even after,
so learn to lie there and be still. Try to like it.)
Christian: Am I being…am I being mean to you?
Judge: I love it. You are not being mean. You are obstinate.
Christian: I’m objective. I’m just being objective. Our child was kidnapped and I’m just being objective.
Judge: I’m going to ——————-backwards to try to help you. I will get to a point where my
patience is going to be done and then I’m gonna let you fall on your own sword is what’s going to
happen. Now you can either make it happen or ride the wave and let it happen to you. Okay? You get
your mental health evaluations as quick as possible. I get my list. As soon as I get the mental health
evaluation, if you will just give me a call. Tell Pam. I mean you don’t have to wait 5 months. I want it
done as soon as they can do it and write it up. Both of them. Okay?————So will they be the
compelling decision maker? I don’t know. You know, I mean they will be important, and make sure that
he has a sense of why they are being evaluated…
****(Make sure you taint the waters sufficiently so the mental health professional knows which way to
slant the info.)
Judge: Okay? Give them a history. You will meet with him and tell him what your history is. I think he
is a likable person. Now, you can wait on this evaluation and if you decide that you want to get
somebody else evaluate you that you like, be doing your homework so that you can round somebody
else up also. Okay, if you want me to wait to come back to court to look at those reports on theirs as
you say…I found someone somewhat neutral but you may not think he is…you can get your own if you
want to take the time and spend the money.
****(Because you realize if the state is paying for it the state always gets what it pays for, right?)
Danielle: Are they paying for that one?
Judge: I think you all are paying for it?
(female voice): We are paying for the doctor, for Dr. Wilson.
Judge: Okay. That’s a prerequisite. That means it is a required bit of information I need to know to feel
comfortable about, okay? Now, what else, Pam? Ms. Allison, what else? Oh, visitation. Let’s talk about
that. All right. Two hours, you know, good. I’m gonna, I’ gonna, I’m gonna order the 12 hours back,
okay? But I need you to help me. I need you to go in there and do your visits and have fun and spend
time with your child, and do all the things that you are supposed to do with a child during that period of
Danielle: We always do.
Judge: Did I say you didn’t?
****(Judge throwing another hostile remark to keep you on the defense. He seems to enjoy doing this a
lot and purposefully.)
Danielle: I am just making it clear to the court. We always do that.
Judge: I mean, you appear defensive but I haven’t even said anything about it. Hey, I just said go out
and have a good time and you’re saying well, I always do. That’s kind of like confrontational.
****(Classic tactic of the narcissist who attacks, then questions a normal response to the attack,
throwing it back on the victim and instilling confusion in any normal response they may try to present.)
Christian: Because we are having some apprehensive situations going on here.
Judge: Well, I will alleviate your fears. Okay? I might just show up at the hearings, at the visitations.
You don’t have any idea when they are going to take place. I need a list. Fax it up to me every time they
visit. I might just pop in and see how everybody is doing. How is that?
Judge: I might just load everybody up in the car and let them come to the house. You guys can come
and sit out there a spell.
Danielle: Can we be in their homes too?
(female voice): —————————-visit. It will be a Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, 10-2.
Judge: Perfect. Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, 10-2.
Danielle: Four hours.
Judge: That’s a jump start. That’s a jump start, okay? That’s something. It’s not———–the final thing,
but it’s a start. Can you come to my house? Did you ask me?
Danielle: Are we invited over to your house?
Judge: Absolutely. Absolutely. Can’t talk about the case.
****(If we didn’t know before, we know now that he lies on the bench.)
Danielle: But we can bring our friends?
Judge: Don’t camp out in my yard, though. So, yeah. Come on by. Can’t talk about the case, though.
You want to send somebody over.
(female voice):———–, your honor. We might come after church.
Judge: Sure. Allison? 24/7. ——————–
Allison: Just let me know when.(laughter)
Judge: My door is always open. Kirby, you may be off the case but come on by. Now, if you come to
my house this is the way it works. My children would have company all of their lives, pancakes on
Saturday with their friends, and grilled hamburgers. We played kickball, basketball…you like sports?
Christian: I play sports, yes.
Judge: What did you play?
Judge: What position?
Christian: I was a pitcher, shortstop, third base, a little bit of everything.
Judge: Good. I was too. Exactly————I played short. I played second.
Judge: Now look. I got some major ————-. We can pitch all day, play kickball, shoot basketball,
but if you come you can’t leave a mess. No. If you use a glass, you have to wash it. If you use a plate
you have to clean it. No matter how all the foods you like, I’m dealing with chocolate chip cookies. You
might have to suffer with those for awhile. You come on down. ————————–bout your friends.
Danielle: We have no problem with that either. We just don’t like our privacy being invaded
Judge: I don’t mind mine being invaded because I don’t care who comes in. They are all brothers.
Christian: Well, that’s….that’s okay or you. We just…
Judge: Well, I thought you said everybody is a brother?
Christian: Yeah, we do.
Danielle: ————-people that we can’t trust and have them lie about us.
Judge: That’s their standards. You want your standards and they want theirs.
Danielle: There is lies and there is truth.
Christian: Well, I think we had the law is supposed to be the standard.
Judge: You got your standards and they got theirs, Allison’s got hers, and ———got his, I got mine.
Christian: Everybody has their own beliefs.
Judge: That’s right. You want them to respect yours…
****(Yes and maybe we could start with respecting a couple’s right to have their own baby?)
Judge: …but you don’t want to respect theirs…
****(Correct. No one wants to respect anyone kidnapping or aiding in the kidnapping of a baby.)
Christian: No. I want to respect theirs but we want to live ours.
Judge: Oh my goodness. Right, so far its Monday, Wednesday, and Friday for a start. Got to get that
evaluation done pretty quick, gotta get that list made Allison, get over there. What’cha doing the rest of
Allison: I have court in Cleburne at 1:30.
Judge: Hey good, in Cleburne. Are you all living in the Heflin area?
Christian: Uh…close to it.
Judge: Typically, typically I would say, you don’t want to tell me your address? Forget about you. I’m
leaving. You get your mind right and tell me what your address is, come back. I’m not going to do that.
****(Suddenly you are a nice guy? Not.)
You just tell her the address. You call me and let me know what it is, text it to me. You don’t mind him
texting me that address do you? When it is all said and done, eventually I am going to send a social
worker out there and they are going to walk around too cause the department is also going to be
satisfied as the guardian is. Well, it shouldn’t take much. What’s a home visit? Five minutes?
(female voice): Typically 30 minutes your honor.
Judge: At the most. Aint no more. 30 minutes. Hey, you can video.
Christian: Will we be getting these orders on paper?
Judge: You gonna write them up? You want to write the order up?
(female voice): Which one?
Christian: We will need the orders for everything that needs to be taking place today.
Judge: ————————-who wants to write the orders?
(female voice): I’m going to let you do it.
Christian: Well, we ask the court to write the orders.
Judge: I will write it. I’ll have them wrote.
Christian: All right.
Judge: If you’ll draft it, I’ll ——————. These things I’ll just mention. We’re gonna take it off this
transcript that she is typing up right here. She will come up with these things I ordered today.
——————–you’ll get it. I’m not asking you to ——————————-, I’m just asking you to do
what I say. You can have your baby boy home real quick, but, and you’ll get to migrate when this case
is done. This could take a little bit, okay? So, be patient. That’s one of the virtues, isn’t it?
Christian: We are trying to be as patient as we can. And we…
Judge: Love conquers all, so if you are loving you will conquer everything.
Christian: Tough love.
Judge: That’s my job. I know what you mean. All right. Let’s see. Here’s my legal pad. A whole legal
pad…a whole legal pad….all the testimony that was on the record. I really can’t recall, I might not have
thought much about the police officer testimony the day that the child was actually removed. I must
have not thought much about it or I can’t remember who all was there. There was a bunch of…I don’t
know, I couldn’t tell if that ———-name was Martin. Martin. Allison Martin. Yeah, I thought about it.
Christian: Well, can we ask will we be getting the testimonies so that we can understand and see…
Judge: You want to pay for it?
Christian: Do I want to pay for it? If we had enough money we would.
Judge: Yeah, well. Do you work?
Christian: Am I working?
Judge: You can’t work. Don’t you draw a disability check?
Christian: I uh…that’s my private information.
Judge: Mr. Holm. Let me go over something again with you. Your life is an open book as far as I’m
concerned. Now you can keep it private for the rest of the world. That’s why these doors are locked up
here. The rest of the world doesn’t need to know about your private life, but I am given the stewardship
of your son at this point so I would turn your world inside out to make sure your son is going to be
properly provided for. When he gets to where he is at, along with your wife. So…
Christian: Are you saying that you are not going to go on the evidence of facts to base these
Judge: You know what the law is in Alabama about that?
Christian: What’s that?
Judge: The judge is the finder of fact. It’s going to be important for me to be finding some facts
assisting to what I believe the evidence is in this case.
Judge: And it doesn’t have anything to do with what you say they are or what they say they are.
Christian: Right, but do we have rights as parents? The burden of proof is on them, not for you to make
Judge: I haven’t made any accusations.
Christian: But you are like imposing certain things to happen rather than the DHR.
Judge: But, I’m imposing the same requirements on them that I am on you.
Christian: So the burden of proof is with you too, as well.
Judge: They tried to establish a burden of proof with those…how many days was that? Do you know
how many days it was?
(female voice): It was three days.
Judge: Three days? They spent three days asking questions, some of which you had answered in the
shelter care. I mean that dependency hearing would probably have helped you a little bit but you
refused answers for whatever reason.
Christian: Because we felt like we were in a process where people were lying and not being equal.
Judge: That’s your story and you should stick to it. Maybe it will help you.
Christian: Well, it’s the truth.
Danielle: If you listen to the transcripts if they are all still really there, at the shelter care hearing and
then the dependency case hearing people have clearly lied back and forth. Somebody said that they
took my baby off of me when she didn’t and somebody else did and they flipped it.
Judge: I tell you what I’ll do and I’m gonna solve this problem.
Christian: And then we have a…
Judge: Hold on, hold on, hold on..Who knows how to copy these? Who can make a duplicate?
(female voice): Judge, I tried to make a copy from yesterday and I was unable to do that, but if
somebody can make one here, I have three CDs. If somebody can figure out how to make a copy…
Judge: Okay. I’ll tell you what I’ll do. Here is the CD. This CD, supposedly…well it was given to me as
a part of the legal file that got transferred when I got this file handed to me. The CD came with it. It
had all things that went on that were on the record some of it which I didn’t really have to hear, all that
paper shuffling and all that fiddling around that took place with waiting for all that voice to come up. I
could have passed with hearing all that. This here. I’ll make you copies of it, okay?
Judge: And every time somebody says something that you don’t like, make a note of it…
****(Just like this. Just like we are doing. We are following the order of the court now, are we
Judge: Okay? Not that you don’t like, but just what you think is opposite of what happened. Now
at this point it’s been said and done and—————————I’ll be just a little bit longer, please,
since this case is kind of frustrating…at this point we have conflict..let me just make a little
illustration. Baby is removed. You say it was actually latched onto your breast, actually milking.
Danielle: Correct! I will never ever in my life for the rest of my life forget the feeling I had when
my child was ripped off of my breast when he was breastfeeding.
Judge: All right. He was actually sucking on your breast.
Danielle: He was sucking on my breast.
Judge: All right. Ms. Rachel, I believe, said that that was not true and who else was in there.
Stacey said that was not true, so…
****(So the officers of the court are either in collusion or they suffer from delusions. Perhaps the
judge needs to order a mental evaluation on members of his court.)
Danielle: Chuck Hayworth said that it is possible that it could have been true, that he didn’t…
Christian: And Rachel Israel did admit to that the baby child was covered up and baby was right
here on her chest.
Danielle: And she also admitted at the shelter case hearing that she took him off of me and then
at the dependency hearing she said that she didn’t.
Judge: Right. Okay. Let’s just talk about all that.
Christian: And she also stated there was no child endangerment and or emergency whenever she
Judge: Right. Yes. It was the totality of the circumstances that they felt he might be in danger, the
Christian: Yeah, I think it was the nurse’s false accusations of being drug smugglers and human
Judge: I don’t have to hear that. That is water over the bridge. Okay, so…
Christian: It is water over the bridge but it has added up to why we are here today.
Judge: Right. So we are here.
Judge: So. Let me ask you this. Do you think that me deciding that the child was pulled from
your breast or whether it was taken off your chest while it was not attached to your breast…do
you think me making a decision about that would have some impact on things moving forward?
****(I think that you, judge, deciding to ignore any and all state’s involvement with lying and
deception in order to protect state’s interests involved with a child-trafficking operation gone
awry is particularly alarming and puts you in the category of accessory to malpractice of law and
in collusion with others to conspire to commit a crime under color of law.)
Danielle: It should show you that the people that are taking our child away from us are lying. It
should show you that there are lies being made. The people who have the power to take our
child…if they are lying, what else could they be lying about?
Christian: And/or maybe the aggressiveness of how it was done…
Danielle: Right. So these people that are put in authoritative positions to be able to do such
actions against families, they should also uphold things where they don’t lie, that they tell the
truth. That if there is an emergency, speak that there is an emergency. If there is breastfeeding
speak that the child was breastfeeding. Why would they lie? When there is lies, that person can’t
be trusted in my opinion.
Judge: Okay, so…well that factor discounts all the other things.
****(That factor is called perjury and it is a criminal violation in a civil trial.)
Ask your local District Attorney when he last prosecuted a case of perjury in a civil court? You
will never get an answer because he/she never has sued for perjury in a civil lawsuit. He never
will sue as all DAs have done across the country. The DA fear this enforcement would open the
Pandora’s box and cause the loss of lawyers legal fees by requiring truth to be allowed in court.
If perjury was enforced in our civil courts half the lawsuits would be dropped. THIS WOULD BE THE
GREATEST REVISION OF OUR JUSTICE SYSTEM WITHOUT CHANGING ALL THE STATE
LAWS. THIS WOULD ALSO MEAN THAT HALF THE LITIGATING LAWYERS WOULD GO
BANKRUPT. ASK YOUR LAWYER WHY PERJURY IS NOT ENFORCED IN OUR COURTS? IF
YOU ARE A LAW STUDENT ASK YOU LAW PROFESSOR WHY PERJURY IS NOT ENFORCED
IN OUR CIVIL COURTS. THIS DIRTY SECRET ALSO MEANS ALL PRO SE LAWSUITS ARE
MISTRIALS IF NO ONE TOLD THE PRO SE HE/SHE AND THEIR WITNESSES COULD LIE
LIKE THE LAWYER OPPOSING HIM/HER COULD AND PROBABLY DID. EVERY JUDGE IN
EVERY COURT KNOWS WHAT A SHAM THEY ARE RUNNING IN THEIR JOBS.
The Justice Industry and Trial Lawyers have to be allowed to suborn witnesses in trials so they can
make a living suing the public. So long as this dirty secret exists we are not a Nation of Laws. The
public does not have any court that dispenses justice. We the public are the sheep who are feed upon as
a right of lawyers and judges for their income. EVERY LAWYER KNOWS THIS SECRET EXCEPT
THE SHEEP. How do you like being a sheep with no rights to protect you against the rights of lawyers
to receive income while you are seeking justice in our courts? Think about it truth is not allowed in our
civil trials. Witnesses in medical lawsuits are allowed to lie (Perjury) for either side of the case whose
pays the most. That’s because perjury is allowed in civil trials. http://www.court-house.com/?p=11
****(So, here is the good news about that. If their side is allowed to lie, then your side is allowed also.
All is fair in love and war and this is war. Killing soldiers and civilians is allowed in war and it is not
called murder by God’s own standard-Old Testament and New. The ten commandments say not to
murder and the Word also tells us there is a time to kill. These are not contradictory. So, since this is a
declared war against all citizens of the United States ((Miranda)), then these citizens in civil trials have
no rules trapping them into conditions or policies which will cause their further demise in a war. Try to
understand this concept and remain free to defend yourself at every turn. Jesus remained mute when
brought to trial because of his specific calling but the Word declares that when Christians are brought to
trial the Holy Spirit will put in our mouths what to say. It will be truth and it will be fearless even
though it takes us to our grave.
Police Misconduct: A Preponderance of Perjury
By Ed Haas
Return to Drug War News: Don’t Miss Archive
On December 1, 1998 Harvard Law School Professor, Alan M. Dershowitz testified before the House
of Representatives Judiciary Committee regarding the corrosive influences of perjury in the legal
system throughout the United States. When considering credentials, there is probably no other person
more qualified to speak about perjury in the U.S. legal system than Dershowitz. He has been teaching
criminal law at Harvard Law School for 35 years. He has participated in the litigation of hundreds of
federal and state cases, many at the appellate level. He has edited a casebook on criminal law, written
ten books, and hundreds of articles dealing with perjury in criminal and civil cases. The key points of
Mr. Dershowitz’s testimony before the Judiciary Committee are as follows:
•No felony is committed more frequently in the United States than the genre of perjury and false
statements Criminal cases often are decided “according to the preponderance of perjury”
•Police perjury in criminal cases is so pervasive that “hundreds of thousands of law-enforcement
officers commit felony perjury every year testifying about drug arrests” alone
•The most heinous brand of lying (perjury by police officers) is the giving of false testimony that
results in the imprisonment or execution of an innocent person
•Less egregious, but still quite serious, is false testimony that results in the conviction of a person who
committed the criminal conduct, but whose rights were violated in a manner that would preclude
conviction if the police were to testify truthfully
•Police Officers are almost taught how to commit perjury when they are in the Police Academy
•Police perjury is not anecdotal. Many commission reports prove rampant abuses in police departments
throughout the United States
•Judges and prosecutors tolerate if not encourage police lying in court all in the name of convicting the
According to the Mollen Commission  the practice of police falsification is so common that it has
spawned its own word — testilying
•Officers commit perjury to serve what they perceive to be “legitimate” law enforcement ends
•In the viewpoint of most police officers, regardless of the legality of the arrest, the defendant is in fact
guilty and ought to be arrested
•When prosecutors are preparing for a trial, they often arrange “dry runs” as part of the trial preparation
procedure. Frequently, prosecutors skirt along the edge of coercing or leading the police witness
•As a result, impressionable young cops learn to tailor their testimony (commit perjury) to the
requirements of the law
There are hundreds of thousands of police officers in the United States today that break the law and
commit felony perjury as a calculated, premeditated offense designed to undercut the constitutional
rights of unpopular defendants
Of all the instances when and where police officers commit perjury, the enforcement of drug laws top
the list. And when it comes to discovering illegal drugs in a defendant’s vehicle, residence, possessions,
or on their person, police have no fear or deterrent against conducting illegal searches and committing
felony perjury; first by filing a false sworn affidavit, then by testilying in court.
Examples of this sort of felony perjury are also found in the Mollen Report. Examples are as follows:
•When officers unlawfully stop and search a vehicle because they believe there are drugs in it, officers
will falsely claim in police reports and under oath that the car ran a red light or committed some other
•Once pulled over, the police officer will search the occupants of the vehicle as well as the vehicle —
with or without consent — although the police officer will always indicate that they had consent
•If consent is adamantly opposed by the occupants, the police officer will report, under oath, that the
contraband was in plain view
•To conceal an unlawful search that does not involve a vehicle, police officers have been taught to
report and testify that they saw a bulge in the person’s pocket or saw drugs and money changing hands
•To justify unlawfully entering a residence where officers believe drugs or cash can be found, cops
commit felony perjury by claiming that they had information from an unidentified civilian informant
It is an interesting fact that the Mollen Report was published in 1994, and the Dershowitz testimony in
1998, yet police misconduct and felony perjury committed by police officers has not been curtailed,
even slightly, since these reports became part of the public record. In fact, the situation has gotten
worse; not better. One could argue that since 9/11, an already corrupt and criminal police mentality as
been catapulted into a full-fledged police state dimension. Today, law enforcement does what it wants,
when it wants, to whomever it wants, with absolutely no restraint whatsoever.
Perjury is a felony crime punishable by fines and imprisonment. Felony no matter where it is
committed is against the law in California and in the United States. when Perjury is committed in
criminal cases law enforcement and prosecutors use tax payers money to aggressively investigate and
prosecute to win their case but refuse to do the same in civil rights cases.
Law Enforcement and Prosecutors are denying victims of racial discrimination and civil rights
violations equal protection of the law against perjury when they are victimized by the same felony
crime of perjury. This is a double standard practiced by law enforcement and the prosecution making it
discriminatory and even more so racially discriminatory since the crime emanates in a civil rights
discrimination case. BY refusing to prosecute perjury committing by hostile witnesses in civil cases
victims are denying equal protection of the law and their due process guaranteed by the
So what does Alabama law say about this?
Alabama Code Title 13A. Criminal Code. § 13A-10-101 –
(a) A person commits the crime of perjury in the first degree when in any official proceeding he swears
falsely and his false statement is material to the proceeding in which it is made.
(b) Perjury in the first degree is a Class C felony.
****(This judge does not care for Alabama law. He only cares for the laws that propel his case in
the direction he wishes it to go. This is called selective enforcement.)
Judge: I mean if you think that…
Danielle: There is many things, many things…
Christian: Well, the law is…
Judge: Hold on. Hold on. Let me finish. All the other things are bogus too. Is that what you are saying?
****(Actually, yes. Absolutely! Absolutely!)
Danielle: There is many things that are. Yes.
Judge: Well, I’ll make you a good tape and you can spend the next several days looking into it like I
did. Make commentary on it.
Danielle: All right.
Judge: And we all may get to a dispositionary hearing. I can’t wait for that. Okay. Here’s your CD.
Um…let’s see…any other things that you want me to come back on? We have court dates available?
Whatcha got? That’s what we are here for isn’t it? Two hours and we will have it done.
(female voice): Yes, sir. I got the calendar so…
Judge: It will just be a hearing…I’m mean I’ve got the case in front of me. I just can’t do….as soon as I
get the mental health evaluation done and all of this is taken care of, uh visitations are going to go
according to plan. You know that you got to go over there and have these visits and the guardian shows
up in the room, don’t ya? I mean I don’t want to hear this, I don’t want somebody to be here on our visit.
I don’t want somebody standing over our shoulder, and I don’t want you whining like a baby…
Danielle: I didn’t hear what you said at the beginning.
Christian: Uh, we’re not whining like a baby. We just don’t trust the environment.
Judge: I didn’t say you were. That’s just I don’t want to hear it. You can whine all day, just don’t whine
in front of me. Go home and whine.
Christian: We don’t whine.
Judge: You get the four hour visit in. Bite the bullet.
Danielle: We always do.
Christian: We’ve been biting the bullet since these accusations have occurred.
Judge: Well, then keep biting it.
Christian: We are doing our best.
Judge: Three days a week, four hours a day, right? And where is it at?
(female voice): It’s at DHR.
Judge: In the visitation room?
(female voice): Yes, sir.
Judge: You got couches in there, all that stuff?
(female voice): Yes, sir. Very comfortable environment.
Judge: When you go in there for that four hours, Mr. Holm, don’t pick your phone up.
Christian: Don’t pick my phone up?
Danielle: We take pictures while we are there of our family.
Christian: Why is that?
Judge: You got a phone?
Danielle: We have one phone that we share.
Judge: You have one phone?
Danielle: One phone that we share. We take pictures of our baby.
Judge: You can pick your phone up and take pictures. Don’t get on it.
Christian: Okay. What…what…
Judge: I want your total devotion of those four hours to be spent on your wife and your child.
Danielle: I know when my child is sleeping on me and I’m sleeping in a chair, what would a father
usually do when the mother and child are sleeping together?
Judge: He can sit over there and have prayer time. Don’t get on the phone. All right. Clear on that?
Judge: I don’t want to hear that the dad is in the hall on the phone while the child is being tended to by
Christian: I was never in the hallway.
Danielle: He would never leave me unless he has to go to the bathroom.
Judge: You were in the hall in the room.
Christian: Well in the beginning we were looking for legal help, and things like that…
Judge: Well you don’t need it. You got it on your own.
Judge: You can take care of things from here on out, right?
Christian: Well yeah. I just don’t understand how that would be a concern being from the reasons of…
Danielle: And at the very beginning…
Judge: You know. I’ll tell you what. Let me illustrate something. I’ll tell you what since you’re curious
about it. If I’m in a room with my wife and child and they are sleeping, I don’t need distractions, I don’t
want to get on the phone. I have plenty of other time of which I could get legal advice when the
visitations are over… spend 20 hours a day on getting legal advice, but the visits are the visits and that’s
it. If you need to consult with lawyers and counselors and advisors and all that other stuff…
Christian: I think it was just multi-tasking at the time because she was holding our child.
Christian: My focus was there.
Judge: Not true at all. It was with somebody else.
Christian: But it was in dealing with things that we are up against here.
Judge: But I don’t want it with somebody else. Just focus on the child.
Danielle: But when you were holding your wife when she had your children, your two daughters, and
she would be sleeping with the baby…
Danielle: Well, what did you do?
Judge: 24/7 I was right there.
Danielle: Doing what?
****(Everyone realizes this is a lie, but what is the purpose of the lie? Demeaning and questioning any
rational decision the Holms might make at any given time to further subjugate them into the state’s way
of thinking. The good news is that the judge has given a great heads up as to how the state is twisting
ANY evidence and using it AGAINST the parents and at all times. Miranda everywhere you turn. Good
Judge: Tending to her and my children.
Danielle: What if they are sleeping?
Judge: I stuck right with her.
Danielle: He’s done that too.
Judge: I’m there for her.
Danielle: Yes. It’s not like he can do housework. We are in a room that is not ours.
Judge: I know. It doesn’t last too long. It’ just four hours. Better than two. Do you think your questions
are appropriate to a guy who has to make a decision in your life?
Danielle: I’m just looking for…
Judge: No, no, no, no, no…I asked you a question. Do you think your questions about my personal life
are appropriate under these circumstances. Think that’s appropriate?
****(Sure, why not? So, Mr. Judge, we just want to know how you feel, how your mind thinks. Just
some clarification is needed to determine what you really are saying. You aren’t qualified to make any
judgments about anyone else’s personal life if you are not subject to the same scrutiny as you hold
others to. Judge not lest ye be also judged. You are getting riled up now, aren’t you? Defensive even,
one might say. Danielle merely asked an innocent question and this evokes another episode of your
interesting passive aggressive traits. According to Wikipedia: Passive-aggressive behaviour often
utilises malicious compliance; that is, veiling one’s intent to not do something in performing the
specific task in such a way that an unwanted result is caused.)
Judge: Use good judgment now. I’m going to ask you again. Good judgment…
Danielle: No, because it will be used against me.
****(ChiChing!!!! Great answer. Smart lady.)
Judge: That’s good judgment right there.
****(Yes, the truth. Remember, in America we are guilty until proven innocent. That state gets to win
more often that way and it’s less demoralizing for them. They didn’t like the other way of innocent until
proven guilty so it has been rescinded in our legal system.)
Judge: It’s not that I always use it against you, but I formulate my opinions about whether you have
good judgment. And that’s one of them. You with me? Okay. Think. Think before you act.
Christian: (whispers to Danielle) that’s crazy…
(female voice): Would you like the department as soon as the psychologicals are completed to file
something with the court? And then we could get a date?
Judge: If you’ll just give me those dates, I’m assuming they’re at least a week or two on down the road,
(female voice): So make a date? That’s the whole thing. I think she needs to have time just to be able to
call the doctor, get a date when they can get an evaluation, and then once he has the evaluation how
much time is it going to take for him just to put————. Usually we don’t have to
wait——————————————-I’ll call today, your honor…
(whispering between Mr. Kirby and the Holms):
Christian: (whispering) Can he force us to go and do an evaluation?
Mr. Kirby: He can order an evaluation. This is a status conference. Like I said, he didn’t force———
Judge: Just for your information so you’ll be real clear, these evaluations that I’m asking that you get,
you all just need to be talking with David, tell him what your thoughts are, and let him get a check on
you, get a readout what your mental health issues might be, and noted…how it should be noted, but you
need to understand something. We’re expediting that. That means we are making it quicker. You know
your file is being pushed forward, okay? And you think it is not because it’s been 3 or 4 months, but the
quicker you can comply that means that if Ms. Smith…you have her number?
(female voice): Yes, sir.
Judge: All right. Do you keep records of yourself on calls, or of whatever? The department have
records of that?
(female voice): Just enter the narrative, your honor.
****(Amazing. He is 64 years old and was a family court judge for 25 years and didn’t know that.)
Judge: Okay. When you make any call, get you a little thing and note when it is made and what time it
was made. And the information that was shared. I want a diary. Cause I don’t want them coming back
and saying I never got that call. If you have to record it, record it. That’s fine.
(female voice): Yes, sir.
Judge: If Mr. Holm is home, I got your appointment set up Tuesday at 4. If they say your appointment
is Tuesday at 4, be there.
Danielle: We are wherever we need to be when we need to be there.
Judge: Perfect answer. Get it done. Get it back. As soon as that takes place, she will have already had
her visits done…you should have had several visits occur, and this train will get to the next station fast
for your benefit and the benefit of your son. He needs help.
Christian: Of course he does. He should have never been taken from us.
Judge: Oh my God. I’m not going to go ahead because I agree or disagree with you. It’s because your
comments are so counter-productive it is ridiculous. So, that’s a problem for me, but you know what
that is a personality quirk that you might have. Whether or not it rises to the level of..you know…
Christian: It’s my opinion.
Judge: Yeah. That’s right. I might as well not make much of it.
Christian: And we are under duress here today.
Judge: And it’s kinda like that ——————. Everybody’s got to go.
(female voice): Your honor, I was going to try to ask…uh….just trying to make sure we can get this
done just as fast as possible————————–and I know you said Dr.Wilson, but I…we called Dr.
Wilson and Dr. Wilson said I do not have any openings in the next two weeks. I can absolutely not do
it. Do we have your permission to call Dr. Lowry (?) and see if he is going to be able to have….
Judge: If he is quicker.
(female voice): I just want it done as fast as possible. I know the court does too, so…I just don’t want to
have us limited to one.
****(Limited to one? What does it matter if they are all good? Are they not all used for other cases?
Are they not all licensed mental health professionals, which the judge has said he is not. One must have
to ask, what is the reason for speeding things up so quickly? What is the panic here? There was no
problem with time when months went by and they didn’t WANT anything to happen quickly. So what is
the change? Something is going on and they appear more stressed about this than the parents.)
Judge: Right. That’s fine. That’s fair enough. Dr. Lowry. And then if you get in there and….now look.
You need to know. These mental health professionals are going to ask you a bunch of questions so I
expect you to cooperate with them. I’m not trying to….look I’m just trying to figure out what’s going on
with your mind. I’ve only been a couple, two or three hours with you. Despite the fact your wife wants
to come out to the house, you know, the law probably looks at that like a little bit questionable,
because, you know I am the judge in the case.
Danielle: We are all brothers and sisters.
Judge: Oh yeah. You want to wait until the kids stay over or you might not want to come out to the
Christian: So we are doing this under duress. We are being forced to go but we are going to go there.
Judge: You know, you’ve used that term a little bit throughout the course of these hearings…
Judge: If I’m in your shoes and I’m up on a mountain and my wife is about to deliver a child and she
is….I don’t know if I should use the term hemorrhaging…were you bleeding?
Danielle: A very little bit. As soon as I saw drops of blood he called 911.
Christian: We made the decision ourselves to do that.
Judge: You made a good decision to call 911. Those drops could have turned into a stream.
Judge: You could have died.
Danielle: Which is why we called 911.
Judge: All that being said, that bleeding and isolation caused you to reach out for help. Correct?
Christian: The fear. I think it was more so the fear of anything wrongful happening at the time.
Judge: I thought God would provide.
Christian: That’s just it. Yeah, that’s just it, that I feared. We feared at the time of it.
Judge: What did you fear?
Christian: We feared of uh…
Danielle: What everyone always fears, death.
Judge: Well, and how was death doing to happen?
Danielle: It could happen any..
Christian: It could happen anytime and anyway. Well anything could ever happen.
Danielle: That’s why we called 911.
Judge: But you got chewed up, didn’t you? You got scared. Right?
****(Childbirth has a way of doing that to you. So does getting married. Life happens.)
Christian: Fear, yes.
Judge: Fear is kind of like I’m shook. I’m afraid.
Christian: It’s more kind of like concerned.
Christian: Yeah, concerned of the situation and we assessed it together.
Judge: All right. And you made the decision to call 911. And you————opinion to do what you
thought was best, is that correct? Well let me ask you this…
Christian: Correct. But is it not our right to not have a natural birth? Is that what you are saying?
Judge: No, no, no…listen to me. What you could have done…you all ready for this? What you could
have done…you could have, as you say you like to do is rely on God to provide for everything. You
could have just dropped down on your knees and had a prayer.
Christian: Yes. Right.
Danielle: We did.
Judge: And God would have provided. Right?
Danielle: God allows the devil too…
Christian: Right. God allows the devil.
Judge: So you think if you didn’t intervene the devil would have come along and —————–in the
Christian: Well, ultimately, I mean anything can happen in life. I don’t understand where you are going
at with this.
Judge: ——————————come at that instant. If you, if you, if you truly believe that God will
provide, why did you call 911?
Danielle: Because we dropped into fear. We were concerned. I saw a drop of blood…
Judge: So your fear took you off the eyes of God and so that’s what happened?
Christian and Danielle: Yes
Judge: So if you would have really, really prayed through this you wouldn’t have called 911? Is that
what you are telling me?
****(He gets you both ways on this question. Catch 22)
Christian: It is just our religious belief to try to be as natural as possible.
Judge: I got that.
Danielle: But sometimes when you need to do other things, sometimes when somebody is telling you to
do different things then you need to kind of go along with society in that day and time. At the same
time we try to be as natural as possible.
Judge: So at what point do you…what point do you get to pick and choose when you want to go along
with society and when you want to do your own thing?
Christian: When society is all around us.
Judge: No, no. I’m asking you——-
Danielle: I don’t know why this is relevant to that one call.
Christian: (whispering to Danielle) Just don’t answer anymore.
Judge: Cause I just want to see at what point do you get to pick and choose when society should be
involved and when they shouldn’t be involved?
Danielle: I should just be able to follow my own beliefs until…I’m not breaking laws.
Judge: Right. You didn’t. Well, I didn’t say you were a criminal.
Judge: I said you might have acted inappropriately in the circumstances.
Danielle: Calling 911when I saw a drop of blood?
Judge: All of it.
Danielle: I was trying to have a natural childbirth. Unassisted childbirth is not illegal in Alabama and
many people do it with midwives and unassisted home-births and all these things. Before we started
traveling we went to mid-wives. I was going to have a natural child-birth.
Judge: I think we’ve been over this already.
Judge: Did you hear me disapprove of any of that?
Judge: So, why are you arguing with me?
Christian: Because you are asking her questions and she is giving you an answer.
Judge: I just asked her what she could have done…what she could have done and didn’t do…
Danielle: What could I have done differently?
Judge: Oh, I’m glad you did what you did.
Judge: But if you really, really believe that God will provide, why make the call? Why did you call?
Christian: Why are you badgering us on our beliefs?
Judge: No. I’m not. I’m not badgering you. You know what? I’m asking you a question.
Christian: You are badgering us on our beliefs.
Judge: No. Why did you call them, Mr. Holm? If God will provide?
Danielle: Because we dropped into fear.
Judge: So is that anti-God or is that with God?
Christian: (speaking quietly) Don’t answer. Don’t answer him. He’s…he’s…I don’t know what’s going on
here. (speaking out) You are badgering us on our beliefs.
Judge: Man, you haven’t seen badgering, Mr. Holms. You don’t know badgering.
****(Don’t make me give you a reason to cry…)
Christian: I guess I am learning right now, I guess.
Judge: Yeah, well, one of these days. I guess I better take of my hat and the hair off my head and show
you my horns?
****(My, my…everyone in this whole town has a fixation with the devil and now this fellow thinks he
is the devil himself. Strange religious beliefs of the townspeople. Too bad it is all presented under color
of law. Too bad for the Holms who apparently have the wrong religion and now they are in trouble for
not believing it in the correct manner prescribed by their non-denominational stance. Wait a minute!
How do you fault someone’s belief’s which remain theologically unstated? Their no-name beliefs are
being challenged by someone proclaiming himself to be the devil. Bizarre. AND it is all in the
Christian: I don’t understand where you are going with that. I mean you are painting a picture here that
Judge: Here’s a question. Now do you think God will provide for you with everything. I am just calling
you out, Mr. Holms, if you think God will provide…
Danielle: No, because God will provide…
Christian: I never said you had horns. That is not calling me out. That’s trying to make a fantastical
****(When they accused Danielle and Christian of the same thing they called said the parents were
suffering from delusions. Only it was the state presenting the delusions, saying words that Christian
and Danielle never said.)
Judge: Don’t get bogged down in my silliness. Why did you call 911 if God will provide? Answer the
Danielle: We did, a million times.
Judge: Now hold it. Not if God will provide, He will provide, right?
Christian: We won’t answer any questions now.
Judge: She can answer them.
Christian: Not if I’m…I’m not going to answer any more questions because you are badgering us on our
Judge: Fine, so you get to pick and choose when you get badgered and when you get anxiety and when
you get put under duress…
Christian: I’m not under any anxiety or whatever. I just choose to not speak to you because you are
badgering us about our beliefs.
Judge: So, you sissying up on me?
Judge: Sounds like you are. Sounds like you are sissying up on me.
Christian: I think that you are antagonizing me because you are trying to get a rise out of me.
Judge: I just had a question for you.
Danielle: We answered you. We dropped into fear.
Judge: Okay. That’s your answer. Why did you call 911.
Christian: That’s the same reason.
Judge: Okay, fear of what?
****(Does this judge know how much time he has spent through this whole ordeal asking the same
questions over and over again? Perhaps that was the goal.)
Christian: Just fear…don’t answer anymore. He’s, he…I don’t understand what’s…I don’t understand why
you are badgering us about our belief.
Judge: I’m not badgering you about your belief. I believe what you believe. I think its wonderful. I just
want to know why you didn’t just let God provide when she started hemorrhaging?
Christian: We don’t have any more answers.
Judge: Now do you Ms. Holm? That’s going to really help you to get your son back.
Danielle: This has nothing to do with our…
Christian: It has nothing to do with our…getting our son back.
Danielle: We called 911 when we felt that…
Judge: It has everything to do with using good judgment when you are raising your child and the care
of him. It will have everything to do with it.
Christian: Because of our belief?
Judge: No, your judgment.
****(Apparently you can’t be the wrong religion in this town and keep your kid. It is poor judgment to
express any belief other than the prevailing one here. That will be taken as proof as lack of judgment.)
Christian: Okay, tell us what was…hold on, hold on…tell us what was wrong with our judgment?
Judge: Your judgment to call 911 was good.
Christian: What was wrong with anything else?
Judge: Your judgment to be on top of a mountain with a 9 months pregnant woman, not so good.
Christian: Why is that?
Judge: You didn’t have adequate shelter. You didn’t have adequate medical provision. You didn’t have
adequate supplies. You didn’t have adequate food, water, and means to provide for a child in a naturally
born healthy environment.
Danielle: So home births are not considered good anymore. Natural births are not considered good.
Judge: I think they are wonderful. I think they are wonderful.
Christian: What evidence or facts do you have that we didn’t have anything that you just stated?
Judge: It’s all in the tape.
Christian: We did have all that.
Judge: You did not and I respectfully disagree.
Christian: Well, that’s all…well I don’t know what else to do here.
Judge: Yeah, except to listen to the judge.
Christian: We are doing as best as we can.
Judge: Yeah, well you got to cooperate. You got a few chores to get done, and we will be back, right?
You know what your chores are? Danielle, do you know what your chores are?
Christian: The chores are what the courts are ordering.
Judge: Okay. All right. And the quicker the better, right?
Judge: Now if you would just say yes and you were meaning it. The quicker the better.
Danielle: The quicker my son is with me and us, the better.
Judge: I’m with you. What do you think, Ms. Miller?
(Ms. Miller) I would very much like to come back very soon to resolve this in one way or another. I am
happy to go out and see the parents’ home once they have completed this evaluation. Those are my two
main concerns that I think could move this case forward.
Judge: Okay. All right. You want this?
(Ms. Miller): Where do I need to take it?
Judge: I don’t know.
Ms. Miller: I’m just not sure that I have another copy, but ——————
Judge: Just don’t lose it.
(female voice): ————————————I will try to put the 911 call in there as well so everybody
can have everything. In court.
Judge: That would be perfect In court, the 911 call. Okay.
Christian: And do we….are we going to be able to get to where I called for 911?
Judge: I’m going to have it….if you’ll mark that, at the next hearing when I have an official “hearing”
where I will be seeing any trial post evidence, which I might do, because I am going to need to see this
report of Dr. Wilson. As a matter of consideration I will receive that documented evidence that you
have it marked and put it in as parent’s exhibit number 6 or 7? ——-As proof that he made the call for
911. I’ll have that marked and put in the evidence, the other 911 call. You should have a few visits
underneath your belt by then. Hopefully they will go great. It shouldn’t be that difficult. You just walk
in, hey there baby boy Holm, Malachi.
Danielle: That’s how it is everytime and no, we didn’t officially name him that.
Mr. Kirby: (whispering) What are you going to do about today’s visit?
Judge: Are you arguing with me?
Christian: I thought it was a question…
Danielle: You asked me a question. I said, no, we didn’t officially name him that.
Danielle: We didn’t officially name him that.
Judge: Oh, you got a name?
Christian: We haven’t been able to spend the proper time with him with ourselves to come up with a
Judge: Baby boy, Mike. Baby boy Holms, right? So, don’t forget to copy…also Allison, let’s copy the
records that he brought because he wanted me to go back to ascertain, you know, of his treatment. So,
let’s get…make sure the orders says that I got copies of his prior health records to evaluate or at least
read them————————————–I guess you’ll need to deal with the stop the medicine issue
too. ———–Wilson might not think that’s a good idea or the other guy.—————————–
(female voice): I’m going to call and leave a message. ————————————
Judge: Yeah, but you might have to rush up a request….——————I want to get, did Judge Walker
actually get these Savannah records in or out? I mean there was a group that was in and a group that
was not in—————-oh, it did come as the first as an impeachment? I did need…
(female voice): Yes.
Christian: We object to the validity of them because they weren’t certified properly.
Judge: Okay. I can fix that. Let’s get them———————————That’s a procedural, that’s a
Christian: But we’ve revoked any and all permissions.
Judge: Yeah, well you know what? You don’t get to do that either. I’m going to get the records. I
don’t really care what you think about that.
****(Basically if Americans thought they had ANY rights, this is proof that it NEVER was true.
This is how it actually is. Notice how confident the judge is. HIPAA only grants permission for
judges, law enforcement, and social services to do this. It does not give rights to anyone. It
removes rights. It forbids inter agency communication so that if anyone ever shared something
they saw going on that seemed wrong with another agency THEY would go to prison. Nice, huh?)
Judge: So get the records. Get them certified.———————I need them to make a real good
decision. Whether you like the decision or not, I need those records and what’s in them. You got
something to hide in those records?
Christian: No, I don’t, just as long as they…Are they going to be certified?
Judge: We’ll certify them.
Judge: Doing this the way it should be done. You like to do things a certain way, right?
Christian: By the law and just certified. Yeah, equality of law.
Judge: By the order you are about to get is going to be the law in this case cause I, unfortunately, wear
the robe of the law. It’s called case law. Okay? You got to get with the program. But more importantly,
you got to find a way to do those healthy things for your son, which you want to do, right?
Christian: We are doing this under duress. We are here today under duress.
Judge: Okay. Got a dictionary out there? Must be people out there with a dictionary. Now bear with me.
I’m going to be patient ———————. ————–, can you tell me the definition of duress?
(female voice): Let me check that.
Judge: Duress. All right. Mr. Holm has indicated that he is here today under duress. I am looking at the
definition of duress. It says it is defined as threats, violence, restraints or other actions brought to bear
on someone to do something against their will or better judgment.
Judge: Or, another legal definition is constraint illegally exercised to force someone to perform an act.
Judge: I guess I could concede that Mr. Holm has the better judgment and that this would be considered
duress, or I could use a synonym for aversion, compulsion, force, pressured, intimidation. I like the
synonym pressured. Force, if necessary, I guess when you are legally ordered to do something, I guess
you are forced to do it. Intimidation, I call that, you know, acting by compliance, compliance by action.
You know, if you feel like you are under duress, good for you. I hope that duress will motivate you to
get your son back as quickly as possible. If you don’t want to feel any more duress, then do what you
are supposed to do and get him back and this will all go away. And you won’t have any more duress put
on you by me or the Department of Human Resource. Just get on board. You know, just go with the
flow, Mr. Holm, and in a short while you can be on your merry way. I’m glad you are feeling duress.
I’m feeling a little duress.
This is all under a little duress. You gotta do certain compliant things in a certain amount of time. That’s
a little duress. Guardians got to make visits. She is going to be a little ——————-the time to go out
there and video tape other people’s houses that she doesn’t really want to go out there and be a nosying
but I ordered them to do it. That’s a little duress. Mr. Kirby probably feels like he can do a whole lot to
help you but he’s not going to be allowed to. You really don’t want his help. He’s feeling a little duress.
My secretaries have missed lunch because I wanted them out here. I wanted a record of these
Christian: Are they here because of that today? Are they on trial or because of that today?
Judge: If they don’t perform, you better believe they are on trial.
Christian: Okay, because we are under duress because our child was kidnapped from us.
Judge: Fine. Well they are under duress because if they don’t do what they are supposed to do, I bring
the heat. You understand that, don’t you?
Christian: I hear you.
Judge: Not that’s not what I’m asking. All I want is a simple I understand, your honor.
Christian: I hear you. I don’t understand your…the way that you are presenting that.
Judge: Yeah, well, okay. All righty. Mr. Holm, you have a lot to learn…but I like your demeanor.
Christian: I’m sorry?
Judge: I like your demeanor. It’s pleasant.
Christian: All right well, we are trying to do as best as we can in these situations that we are in.
Judge: —————————-and get me an order I can sign off on?
(female voice): Judge, I can try to do that as quickly as possible. I do have court today at 3…
Judge: No, not today. I have a trial, a two day trial, and then I have another one right behind it…two
days next week.
(female voice): I will try to get it in the first of next week.
Judge: As soon as you get it in to us, I will sign it. You all —————————with Shelly. Do you all
have…do you all get texts on your phone?
Christian: Uh, yes we do, but we would like to address one other thing is that we have us..well, I think
we filed a motion in on it as far as with our visitation where we were having complications of lies, once
again, that were filed in for my visitations to be removed? And we just feel that this process of us
having to go and visit our child there, where these people that are making these false accusations is
maybe a biased situation for us to go into?
****(You think, maybe? Like maybe this whole Anniston adventure is also.)
Judge: Yeah, well, are you finished?
Christian: That’s pretty much it.
Judge: So here’s what I will say about that. The Department of Human Resources is made up of a
building which has certain physical accommodations and safety features in it. The building itself does.
It also is comprised of workers who have to manage their cases while they are in the building. The
primary responsibility to manage the case or to have custody I would see is to open the door and let
people in, show them where the room is, check on them what…every four hours——————-or wait
for a knock on the door and say, hey is it good? So opening a door, saying hey, welcome Holms, here’s
Christian: Well, since we had malicious intent, we just ask that Leslie Smith be taken off of our case
and somebody else be put on. That’s all.
Judge: All right, all right, all right. Are you gonna answer the door?
(female voice): Yes, sir. I’m normally on duty.
Judge: Okay, I know you don’t like her because you don’t believe what she stands for…
Christian: Well, she lied.
Danielle: She lied. And we have witnesses.
Judge: Well, she won’t be talking to you. She is gonna open the door, and say welcome, Holms. Let me
show you to your room. That’s it. Okay, now. Do you have a lot of free time for these visits?
(female voice): —————-Depending on…I mean it all depends on the day.
Judge: In my experience, and this is really an odd ball thing I do, in my experience if somebody wants
to wiggle is to just keep them from wiggling just paint them into a corner so they don’t have any room
to wiggle. So the procedure is real simple. Go into the —————home. I’ll show you to your room,
and you can do that. If you have questions, don’t ask them. You’re on your own. Thank you for opening
the door. We appreciate your space in this artificial visitation, and I promise you it is. It is that, but that
is the best we can do for now. Better than what you had.
Christian: Yes. It’s better than not having any.
Judge: Absolutely. That’s very nice of you. I appreciate you thought about that. It’s like my illustration
earlier about walking on the hot coals for my children. If the devil wanted to sit on the couch beside
me, I would make sure my kids couldn’t see him, and I got to see my child, I say I would be for all that.
Come on in, boy. You know, I get to see my child. Whether you like it or don’t like it, I don’t care. It’s
————–to me.You go in there and you get your visit with your son and ignore all the other outside
annoyances. That’s the more important to you.
Danielle: That’s what we are doing.
Christian: We are doing our best to have to do that.
Judge: So we trying to get them up on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, those four hours. By the time
you get your evaluation done, those four visits have taken place, we will be right back here just as
quick as I can get you all to do what you got to do and they can be satisfied with the report from Dr.
whichever one, and this house and get that whole thing with you right back, and if I have to stay after
my trial at 5 o’clock at night and get you all back in here for some court or hearing to get some
resolution, I will. One more thing, the most Christian lady I ever met up here, I need her input ——–;
I’m not saying we————–, I’m just saying———— we also have a preacher’s wife taking notes up
here. They know what it is to————–. Mr. Kirby, it’s been a long time ——————-, I know you
got frustrated with DHR there. You requested some…I think you uncovered about all the things you
needed to uncover ——————————I’m going to grant your motion to
withdraw——————.They can always ask for another
———————–You are fully welcome to get somebody else or another lawyer or come back or
whatever you want to do. Get these chores done, this homework, these orders if you can handle them,
and we will be back as quick as we can. I’m not going to let this case————-but you might like it or
You need to have a resolution and so does the baby boy Holm. Now those hours you are not visiting
you ——————scripture time. You don’t have him with you. You gonna name him? You don’t want
to do it in front of DHR. You want to do it when he’s once back in the house.
Danielle: Yeah. We want him in our care so that we can.
Judge: Okay. Well, I’ll call him baby boy Holm. You understand now. I want to make something clear.
If you understand. I don’t have a gag order. I don’t need that. Okay? I don’t need a gag order, but there is
a law. You want to know the truth the scripture also teaches that we are to render unto Caesar what is
Caesar’s. You understand that, scripture?
****(Yes, Mr. Judge. Do you? There is a law. It is called the United States Constitution. It grants
certain unalienable rights to its citizens. Selective enforcement will not prevail in a civilized society
because respect for ALL laws will break down and anarchy will be the result. This nation must return to
a rule of law.)
Christian: Yeah, I’ve heard of that scripture.
Judge: It is about civil obedience. I know that you have heard that verse.
****(Actually, some people think it is more about paying taxes.)
Christian: So, the law means that this hearing is confidential. When it is all said and done and the dust
is settled on this case and it’s closed, you can write a book. No problem. But until it is closed, you are
too. You’re not ————-in court now right, cause your representing yourself. You are pro se. You are
not just a party to proceedings. You are a party to the proceedings and you want to argue about the
lawyer, so you are bound by the same rules and canons…
Christian: We are actually standing here as man and woman. Representing ourselves is kind of like an
abstract form of it. We are just standing here.
Judge: Right. As a man and a woman in a court proceeding who is representing themselves. You are
called pro se litigants. You have no counsel. So the law is not bound by your silence. It was that lawyer,
that lawyer, this lawyer, and her agent, but don’t break the law. You said what laws have I broken? At
this point, I’m not————-, but if you run your mouth outside of this court proceedings I will
consider that breaking the law. I see you nodding. Did you understand that? Or do you hear me?
Christian: I hear you.
Judge: You hear me.
Christian: I don’t understand this process that we are going through because our child has been taken
but I hear you.
Judge: You are not the only one who has been in a courtroom like this and can’t figure out what is going
Christian: No, I’m figuring out what is going on, but I hear you.
Judge: Yeah. Okay. Make appropriate judgments when you leave here. Anything else? First time I’ve
ever seen you. I hope it wasn’t too bad.
————————————————————————————-said I can’t believe you spent all
that time————————————do you have copies of that recommendation?
(female voice): I do. I’ll get it.
Judge: You give them one, and I get one.
(female voice): Yes. I’ll leave one with you. I’ve got———
Judge: All right. This status conference is now concluded.
The judge now becomes a very nice guy. The transcripts are no longer being typed. Please listen to the
audios to hear additional conversations off the record.
Many video links can be found on You Tube under Holm name.