Courtroom Holm Transcripts #6, #7, #8, #9, #10, #11, #12

Heflin - We'll Never give up

Tape 6: Rachel Israel
Israel: I am employed at —————- Cleburn Children’s Center.
Attorney: In what capacity?
Israel: I am sworn in under the 7th Judicial District State of Alabama, the
District——–Office as an investigator. We investigate crimes against
Attorney: For lack of better words, a police officer investigator?
Israel: Yes
Attorney: How long you been doing that?
Israel: As law enforcement? 11 years.
Attorney: And you were here at the first shelter care hearings? You’re
familiar with the Holms. Can you tell us how you became involved in this
Israel: I received a call from the sheriff’s office stating that there was a
homeless couple at RMC that had given birth to a child. DHR was on
scene and requesting assistance.

(Why did the sheriff’s office call her? The sheriff’s office was not there.
Anniston PD was there. Stacy Jackson said that she did not know why
Rachel Israel was called in. And Rachel Israel told us she was there
because they could not identify us and thought we were Richard Christian
Holm and Daniela Ruiz, 2 criminals from Arizona who were drug
smugglers and human traffickers. This had nothing to do with
“homelessness”. DHR already said they called Anniston PD for
assistance, not the Sheriff.)
Mr. Hamlin: Do you know which DHR was on scene?
Israel: I did not know at the time.
Mr. Hamlin: What, if anything, did you do once you received that call?
Israel: When Evan made contact with Mr. Hayward, the security officer at
the RMC and I was taken back behind the nurse’s station and there made
contact with Stacy —————.
Mr. Hamlin: Alright, can you tell the court how you became acquainted
with the parents once you arrived at the hospital.
Israel: When I arrived there Stacy informed me that there was a court
order that was being signed by the judge to remove the child from the
parent’s custody over to the state’s custody.
(A “court order” that we never saw, or received until months later when
Kirby gave us a copy.)
Mr. Hamlin: What concerns did you have with the parents after you started
in with your investigation in cooperation with DHR? What was your main
Israel: Well, the main concern obviously is the protection of the child, to
make sure he is in a safe environment. As law enforcement serve and
protect in any capacity making sure that that child has a safe place to go
home to. While I was there there was some information that was brought
in that there had been an individual with similar names that they had
identified as bringing people across the border at some point in time. We
weren’t sure if this was even the same person.
(So, they were not sure if we were the same, person so instead of looking
into it, and allowing our baby to breastfeed and be with his parents for the
next 24 hours before discharge, they rip him away and lock him in a room
and stick him in a crib to cry without his mommy? For what? They were
not sure of our identity but they made it SUCH a big deal saying that
“they had reason to believe we are not who we say we are?” They did not
even investigate or find out any more information about our living
arrangements, plans, etc….they only took him before finishing an
assessment and then made excuses after. Stacy Jackson admitted on an
audio “the drug test audio” that they took him because of all of this chaos
that THEY created.)

Mr. Hamlin: Okay, but you received that information?
Israel: Once I was on scene, yes.
****(HOLD IT!!! So, does a child’s crime detective get called into
EVERY DHR call, along with the city police as well for just homeless
couples?? She said she was not even aware of the mistaken identity until
ALREADY on the scene at the hospital?? But, yet she does not KNOW
DHR from ever working with them previously? This particular DHR is at
RMC OFTEN taking babies. They just took another one a couple of weeks
ago! So, Rachel Israel went to the scene just for a homeless couple?? A
CHILD’s CRIMES DETECTIVE? What CRIME were we committing by
being homeless if that was the only reason she was called? No….there is
more to this story Ms. Israel.)
Mr. Hamlin: Was it concerning to you how similar this information was to
who was there?
Israel: Yes.
Both arrested for drug smuggling and human trafficking and both arrested
in March of 2015, but on DIFFERENT days, in DIFFERENT parts of
How is this SO similar to CHRISTIAN CLARKE HOLM and DANIELLE
HOLM , where Christian was living in Savannah, Georgia in March of
2015, separated from Danielle who was living with a roommate in
Sarasota at the time? Christian was still taking care of his grandfather at
the time and Christian and Danielle were traveling back and forth visiting
each other between Savannah and Sarasota, never traveling to Arizona
once, until June and July of 2016.)
Mr. Hamlin: Did you find out if these people had ever been to Arizona?
Israel: I did not do that part of the investigation because of RMC and the
jurisdiction of Anniston PD came out and actually was assigned to attempt
to identify the people that were there. In this case, Mr. and Mrs. Holm.
***(LIES. Israel sat in the room with Danielle and asked “have you ever
been to Arizona?” I said, yes, I was there a few years ago back in April of
2014 with a friend and his family, and I worked there selling salon
products. Also, I was there with Christian just a couple of months prior to
delivering our baby, as we were traveling the country by car and staying
in national forests at camp sites.
Also, Anniston PD never spoke with me ONCE. They never attempted to
ID me. I gave Rachel Israel my ID’s, and Anniston PD while holding
Christian in the other room never asked for Christian’s ID. They were just
there to make sure nothing happened. Rachel Israel is the one who took
our ID’s and then lied about it here. Danielle gave her passport and
driver’s license and social security number. Christian gave his driver’s
license, social security card, and state of Georgia weapons license which
was received via a federal background check. Also, Christian receives SSI
through the social security administration….but yet they could not find
him through his social security number???)
Mr. Hamlin: Did you have any cooperation with Anniston PD? Did you all
share information as far as what you found out and what information was
gathered during this investigation?
Israel: When I was there Anniston took Mr. Holm into a separate room to
try to identify him and get his information. At that time I was notified that
an order had been signed and we went into the room.
(They brought Christian into the other room, and Christian said, “What’s
going on here?” The Anniston PD then replied, “We don’t know. Maybe
you can tell us?” There were 2 officers in the room with Christian and the
door was closed. The 2 police officers never asked Christian for his ID.
Rachel Israel then came in with our backpack that carried all of the
baby’s items as well as the pepper spray and she asked for Christian’s IDs.
He gave her his 3 forms of ID. Anniston PD never asked him to do
anything. They were just there as security.)
Mr. Hamlin: And before removing the baby, did you search the room?
Israel: Not before removing the baby, no. Upon entering, I observed a
knife on the stand.
FOR ME (WITH THAT KNIFE), that he had left the hospital to go get
after I delivered the baby because I was craving fruit.)
Mr. Hamlin: What kind of knife?
Israel: A hunting knife, about a 6 inch knife that was sitting there on the
****(The knife shrunk from a 9-inch at her first hearing. She must have
measured it since then.)
***(Actually. She lied 2 times. It is a 4 ⅛ inch buck knife. Here is a
picture of the exact knife.)

I removed the link that was here with the picture of the knife because it caused a glitch in this program. 

***ALSO important*** (Rachel Israel gave a business card, with a
number to a place she does not even work at, and wrote in her own
handwriting on the back an “evidence number” to pick up Christian’s
“evidence” at the sheriff’s department when we leave the hospital. She
was taking the items since we were in a “no weapon zone”. Christian
went back to sheriff’s department about 3 or 4 times AND called, and
each time there was an excuse for why he could not pick up his property.
Just a week ago, we went back to the sheriff’s department and it was told
to us that Rachel Israel was told by the new judge, Bud Turner, that his
“evidence” cannot be released to him, because the judge said he needs it
in evidence…”
So, why I ask, are a 4-inch knife and 2 bottles of pepper spray being held
in “evidence” against Christian if neither of these things were used in a
crime and this is a family court case?? What is going on here? Are
drummed up charges going to come into play over this “evidence”?)
Mr. Hamlin: Was that concerning to you?
Israel: Yes, and some pepper spray and knowing that RMC is a no
weapons zone.
Mr. Hamlin: Did you confiscate that?
Israel: I did.
Mr. Hamlin: As part of this did you have any opportunity to search the
room at some point in time?
Israel: I asked Ms. Holms if there was any other weapons in the actual
room and she said that she knew in the backpack there was a green like
duffel bag sitting on the little couch right there, and she knew that there
was some pepper spray inside there.
Mr. Holm: Was it pepper spray, mace, or do you recall?
Israel: It was the good stuff, pepper spray what police officers use.
“And anyone and everyone can buy it from Amazon, which Christian did.
And the exact pepper spray is in this link below. Would rather carry
pepper spray for protection than a gun!)
Mr. Hamlin: Okay, so it was the police officer grade? What information
did you gather about the parent’s living situation?
Israel: Ms. Holm told me that they had been….umm…they considered
themselves to be missionaries, they were on a mission, they had walked
from Montgomery she explained the way that Jesus had did, and walked
the earth. That’s what they were doing.
Israel: I asked her how they had provided for themself and she said
through offerings that people gave them for their growth. I recall asking
her did she have a place to stay? She told me that she had been several
weeks overdue with the baby and had to be brought to the hospital with, I
guess the baby not being born on time. She did disclose that she did plan
on having the baby at Cheaha Mountain in spring water. She wanted the
baby to be born in spring water on Cheaha Mountain.
***(We told them right away he never went without, because Christian
had been on disability. He had a check from that monthly and we never
had to go without because God always provided. God worked through the
inspirations of others and people would just stop as we were walking and
give food or water. Their offerings were offerings of love so we accepted. I
told her, it is a growth process of everyone. When they offer, they are
showing love, so they are growing and we are receiving love as we are
giving it to others, so it is a growth process for all. We never said no to
offers unless it went against God (we were offered beer once and said no
thank you). That is how God works. And, the baby was not several weeks
overdue. Babies are born when they are ready. We called 911 when I went
into labor because we got scared because of how much pain I was in and
the water was not breaking (because it was never going to…he was born
en caul). I was exactly 42 weeks when I went into labor. I was not
planning on having the baby in water. I said I wanted to be NEAR water
for a serene atmosphere. Water is divine to us and gives us life, I wanted
to be NEAR water…which we were. But never in it. I am too afraid of

Mr. Hamlin: Did you get————-about where they had the beginning of
their walk from?
Israel: Well, she told me right off the bat that they had begun from
Montgomery, that she had her vehicle parked at a storage unit is what I
Mr. Hamlin: Okay, did they say what they had brought with them?
Israel: Uh, the clothes on their back.
(So, we had nothing in storage Ms. Israel? Nothing in our car?? Our car
was not FILLED with stuff from traveling across country?)
Mr. Hamlin: Okay, you said you searched the duffel bag for mace.
Israel: I removed the duffel bag actually from the room and took it in to
where the officer was attempting to identify Mr. Holm, and I asked him if
there was anything else in there? I explained to him that RMC is a no
weapon zone, that I would have to search the bag. I began to do that,
confiscated the spray, and also the spray in the ———–that was there.
(She searched the bag BEFORE taking it to the other room with Christian.
She searched it FIRST with Danielle. Danielle said fine because there was
nothing to hide, and Danielle and Christian were telling the truth about
everything and just thought this was a simple mistake that could be fixed
and their baby could come back. Pepper Spray is not illegal, neither is a
4-inch blade that is used for cutting fruits and vegetables.)
Mr. Hamlin: Did you talk at all about either one of them about provisions
they had for the child at the hospital?
Israel: No.
(But she just said a minute ago we said we only had the clothes on our
back. So which is it, we DID talk about what we had, or we did not??
Because we can assure you, that once she asked us about provisions we
would’ve told her the truth which is that we had enough with us for the
baby for a good solid 2 weeks and then once we go back to the car, our
car was filled with more for the baby.)
Mr. Hamlin: Did you see any provisions that they had for the child?
Israel: I remember seeing inside the duffel bag a smaller bag, I want to say
like a green little bag,and I asked Mr. Holm what it was, and he said it was
necessities for the baby. And I do recall like unfolding the top and
unrolling it and finding, I think because I was kind of tunnel vision on
finding weapons I wasn’t….you know….clearly….but I do remember seeing
the ointment. Baby ointment inside the bag.
(So, she was “tunnel vision” looking for weapons?? But Maybe remember
baby items, maybe not?? it was a backpack FULL to capacity of BABY
items and she had to get to the BOTTOM of the back to actually get to the
“pepper spray” which she considered a WEAPON….focused on the
wrong things I would say??
Did we commit a crime we don’t know about??)
Mr. Hamlin: How large you think that bag was?
Israel: It wasn’t very large. It was about….I’m gonna say that big.
Judge: Can you give a measurement as to…
Israel: I want to say maybe 6 by 8
(This is the actual bag below, except ours is green. The actual dimensions
of the bag are: 7.8 x 12 x 19.2 inches)
(THIS bag, Danielle carried on her back with ONLY baby
items….because she wanted that to be the bag they grabbed in an
emergency more than anything else. And Christian carried everything else
as well as some other baby items that could not fit in this bag. This bag
was FULL of baby items. About 2 weeks worth of clothing/diapers. We
had diapers and wipes in tent as well as some on Christian’s back.
Everything else was in our car.)
Mr. Hamlin: Based on all the information you have received with weapons
being in the room, the information about people out of Arizona, and I
think I asked you…I don’t know if you ever answered…did you find out
whether they had been in Arizona?
Israel: Yes. I did talk to Ms. Holm and asked her had she ever been in
Arizona? She said she had.
Mr. Hamlin: Did you have an idea about how long ago it was they were in
Israel: I don’t recall.
****(Standard answer for whenever the facts will absolve the defendant
from guilt. The answer is given by people with selective memory and who
don’t keep records or notes, I have noticed.)
****(I told her we had just been in Arizona 2 months prior to being in
Alabama, before giving birth. These people got arrested in Arizona in
March of 2015.)
Mr. Hamlin: But based on the totality of the information, was it
concerning to you about the child…their parenting ability was a concern to
Israel: I was concerned about the home itself, the well-being of the child.
****(The natural conclusion of her statements places camping in a tent as
an illegal occupation, a dangerous occupation, and basis for removal of
children for people who engage in this activity. AGE has not been
established in the books for WHEN it is legal to remove children for the
crime of camping. The crime of camping while traveling when pregnant is
also grounds for removal. The crime of homelessness is also basis for
removal and will be attached to individuals involved with religious
occupations if they combine these factors at any time during their
occupation. Precedence is set by this case if it has not already been done
so before.)
(Exactly! And also keep in mind she never said she was concerned about
our mental health here either, or that we had done any harm to our baby
in any way. She was concerned about “homelessness”….so she
interrogated us and treated us like criminals? And asking us for identity
info and waving the knife and pepper spray around as though we did
something wrong with having those while camping?)
Mr. Hamlin: Could you go into a little bit more detail what made….other
than what we just talked about…was there anything else that caused
concern for you at that time?
Israel: The lack of provision for the child itself. I mean if you’re homeless
you have nowhere to take a child to be safe. I mean it is Cheaha we are
talking about. It was cold weather, not cold cold but I mean cold kinda
being out there. It being a newborn, yes, I was very concerned because we
could not identify positively Mr. Holm.
(But, we had all baby items that anyone would have at the hospital, and
she sifted through our pack PAST these items to find pepper spray. And we
had a car in storage that we were going to need to get a ride back to. And
we had income. And we had the capability of finding shelter at any point
in time whenever needed, as proven every time we stayed at a hotel or
when they stole him from us and we found a rental instantly in order to get
him back. And no, it was not cold. I was wearing a sleeveless, long
summer dress and very hot while in labor and Christian was shirtless. And
again, we were traveling lightly. Everything else was in the car to go back
to later, which is what we ended up doing anyway. And what was the
concern?? Because of all of these made up excuses, or because they could
not identify Christian? Oh and I thought it was BOTH they could not
identify??? Why did they call Danielle, Daniela Ruiz??? What is the truth
here, Ms. Israel?)
Mr. Hamlin: All right. What information did you receive on his identity at
the time at the hospital?
Israel: I was informed by the officer at APD that he ran his social, ran his
driver’s license and both came back not on file.
***(What officer at Anniston PD?? Because Christian never gave his
social or driver’s license to Annison PD. He gave that to RACHEL
ISRAEL. And interesting how all of a sudden it is “not on file”, but yet,
while traveling by foot, we got stopped on the side of the road, by multiple
police officers who were called to “check on us”, because God forbid
anyone see a pregnant woman walking down the street…we always gave
our ID when asked, they would call into the station, make sure it came
back without warrants, etc…and there was never an issue. The police on
our travels were very friendly and always offered food, water, rides, and
would drive by and honk at us in support for our mission. Why was there
never an issue with the ID coming back then?? And also, again…social
security number comes back “not on file” but he gets a check every month
from social security??)
Mr. Hamlin: Okay, Mr. Holms had given him a social and a driver’s
Israel: Out of state Driver’s license.
(New Hampshire Drivers license because that was our last residence
before traveling.)
Mr. Hamlin: And, he couldn’t find record of him?
Israel: That is correct.
Mr.Hamlin: And so that, along with everything else is very concerning?
Israel: It was very concerning.
Mr. Hamlin: Do you know what explanation was given about why he was
not found by Mr. Holms?
Israel: At the time, no. I did not know why. I want to say later on that night
I learned that he had told DHR about his grandfather having served under
a president and that he was…
Christian: Objection. Heresay.
Mr. Hamlin: Was there any statements made in front of you such as about
the statement of conspiracy or anything.
Israel: I was referred to as the beast, DHR was the devil.
*** (When SHE took the baby off of my chest, I looked her in the eyes and
said, “all I see is satan right now in your eyes”, and Christian in the other
room said, “the devil is prevalent here”.)
Mr. Hamlin: All right. Who referred to you as the bea….
Israel: Mr. Holm.
***(Definitely a lie. He said “the devil is prevalent here”)
Mr. Hamlin: Mr. Holm?
Israel: Yes. I explained to Mr. Holm before I left and gave him one of my
cards, I told him the reason I was there, I told him that I have assisted
DHR. I told him that his weapons would be at the Sheriff’s office and that
I encouraged him to attempt to get his…be fingerprinted. That way we
could clearly identify who he was.
Mr. Hamlin: Obviously it was an upsetting situation, you taking away a
new baby from the Holms, but it….I mean not you personally, but was
their actions over and above or is this…did they just show the type of
reaction you would expect from anybody?
Israel: I was concerned by the way they talked, Ms Holm and him.
****(TALKED? You mean they weren’t screaming and yelling at you,
and cussing you out, storming, threatening, NOTHING????? They
TALKED??? How long have you been taking kids away, lady?
Ten years was it?)
***(ALSO, when Hamlin starts saying, “obviously it was an upsetting
situation, YOU taking away a new baby from the Holms, but it…I mean
not you personally…” (he said this, because SHE DID TAKE THE BABY
FROM ME, which she lied about later!! She said, Stacy Jackson did.
Why??? because there was NO EMERGENCY FOR HER TO TAKE HIM
FROM ME and a law enforcement officer cannot take a child without
there being an emergency against the child.
And yes, the way we TALKED was “disturbing to her” because we spoke
of the devil being prevalent and us following God. When she first took him
off of me I remember saying over and over again, “why are you doing
this, we have done nothing wrong”….but we never screamed at her or
anyone. We were shaken up. I was crying inconsolably. I never threatened.
I never cussed, neither did Christian. Christian was calm because God
made him calm.)
Mr. Hamlin: Can you explain that?
Israel: Well, I mean…I’m sitting there. I’m explaining the situation to Mr.
Holm and he is like, “The devil is in this. This is not right.” And we’re
feeling like we are totally here to do a job. We’re here….I don’t know you.
I don’t know anything about you. I’m not here to harm you or do
anything….This is not personal because I am here to do a job and I
explained that to Mr. Holm. And of course he went on and on about how
the devil was in this and…
****(Is this a human being? She is not feeling acknowledged or
appreciated for kidnapping with a gun while the ones who just delivered
the baby she is stealing are not fighting back in any way. Is she actually a
real person? I want the whole world to hear what you had to listen to on
the witness stand)
(Exactly. We did not flip out, so it was concerning because we were “too
calm”, and we did not flip out so it was concerning because they couldn’t
find something against us.
She wants acknowledgment for her JOB.
And guess what, she is the WIFE OF A PASTOR!)
****(The wife of a pastor? ARE YOU FLIPPIN’ KIDDING ME?????
This makes me want to do something that I cannot discuss here. I plead
the 5th!!!! I am not calm…)
Mr. Hamlin: Did she contribute to the conversation?
Israel: No this was actually afterwards. He was up standing at the nurses
Mr. Hamlin: Well, let’s back up to the point that the baby was removed.
Were you present?
Israel: I was.
Mr. Hamlin: Who do you recall was in that room?
Israel: Myself, Stacey, an intern I believe,
Mr. Hamlin: Stacey Jackson?
Israel: Yes,I’m sorry. Stacey Jackson from DHR, and Mr. Hayward.
Mr. Hamlin: And at the time that Ms. Holm was informed that the baby
had to be removed, was she cooperative?
Israel: Um…she was….I explained to her why I was there and told her we
had a court order signed from the judge that we had to remove the child
from her custody.
***(LIE….the court order was SIGNED at 5:20pm….He was taken into
custody at 4:30 pm and we never saw a pick up order)
She tried to get up out of the bed and leave at that point and I detained her
by her left arm and told her that she needed to comply.
***(LIE, I had an epidural. My right leg was numb and I could not move
very easily. And Mr. Hayworth barricaded me in the bed before the
removal by putting up the side bars of the bed to keep me in it as Israel
was talking to me.)
Mr. Hayworth was standing on the other side of the bed. She was grasping
the baby very tightly.
(I twisted my body to my right as he was breastfeeding on my right breast
with his body laying across my chest. When she started reaching down, I
twisted my entire body and held him against me allowing him to continue
feeding. Mr. Haworth then threatened me and said I needed to let go of the
baby. He then grabbed my right arm over the railing of the bed so that I
would let go of the baby. As he held my right arm down, I then continued
twisting my body and hold the baby with my left arm until she reached
down and grabbed him, ripping him off of my nipple while latched on.)
It became concerning and I told her that she did not need to harm the baby
or I would press charges and have her jailed for child abuse.
(She grabbed the baby, he started crying after being ripped off of my
nipple, and she looked down at me and said, “now I have something
against you, for trying to hurt your baby”)
Because of the…you know….you could tell..the baby started crying. He
was in distress.
(Because she ripped him off of me violently while he was feeding on my
At that point Ms. Stacey stepped in and took the baby, removed the infant.
HE WAS FEEDING and then handed him to Stacy Jackson who was at
the foot of the bed with the intern).
Mr. Hamlin: How many times did you all have to ask for her to turn over
Israel: Oh, several times.
Mr. Hamlin: So she did not turn over the baby, peacefully.
****(Oh sure, you can have him. What was I thinking? I could deliver this
child and actually think he was mine? Anyone can just come in for no
reason and demand I hand him over and immediately.-insert serious
sarcasm here)
(If ANY mother in this situation have any better ideas as to how to protect
your child while being falsely accused and being told your child is being
taken from you, I would love to know….I did not scream, I did not cuss, I
did not threaten. I merely held my baby as he was feeding on my chest and
tried keeping him on me…with ONE arm, because my right arm was being
held down by a security guard so that I would let go of MY baby that I just
delivered one day previously.)
Mr. Hamlin: And she grasped the child so tightly…
Israel: So tightly, yes.
Mr. Hamlin: I mean, it sounds like you had to threaten her to release the
hold on…
Israel: I wasn’t threatening. I was just telling her how it was going to be.
****(Silly attorney. Don’t you know threatening to falsely accuse someone
of child abuse and putting them into jail is not a threat? It is just telling
them how crooked it was going to continue to be.)
Mr. Hamlin: Well there was that part…it was just…
Israel: Yeah.
Mr. Hamlin: And uh…at the time you all went to rem….Stacey went to
remove the baby, was the baby breastfeeding?
Israel: The baby had fed but he wasn’t feeding anymore. He was laying.
You could tell he was laying.
****(Apparently she had x-ray vision because it has already been testified
by more than one witness that the baby was under a covering and it could
not be determined by the observers if he was latched on or not.)
***(Also, this is the SECOND time in this testimony Mr. Hamlin started
off by saying, “at the time YOU all went to rem…Stacy went to remove the
(Because it is KNOWN that Rachel Israel removed him and she did it
Israel) DID and then handed him over!!!)
Attorney: Okay.
Israel:Well, we asked. We asked was the baby feeding and she said yes, he
was, but we could tell he was no longer feeding.
***(LIES…..they KNEW I was breastfeeding. Yes, I covered up because
they came into the room, and I covered him so he could continue feeding.
Just because they came in didn’t mean I was going to stop feeding my
baby. So, if my baby was not feeding, why would I have him covered
up??? Everyone testified that he was COVERED? So, do I just cover him
for no reason??)
****(This sheriff has knowledge of many things that she can tell. She can
tell when a parent has unsafe living conditions while standing in a
birthing center, she can tell when a parent has brought inadequate
provisions for a newborn to the hospital when she searches their bags, she
can tell when a parent has a mental condition when they have different
religious beliefs than hers, she can tell when a baby is not latched on
while hidden under a cover to breastfeed. This Sheriff has no knowledge
of breastfeeding if she states she could tell he was no longer feeding,
because babies do not willingly unlatch when they are very young. They
also do not get much at the colostrum level so there is no reason to
unlatch. This is just the nature of breastfeeding in the first few hours. This
Sheriff has no knowledge of this basic truth that all mothers know about,
but she can tell…)
Mr. Hamlin: Okay…so would you have waited till the baby was done
Israel: Yes.
Mr. Hamlin: Did you consider watching out or restraining in any way?
Israel: No.
(Because there was no reason to!! I was not violent or threatening. I was a
scared, THREATENED, upset, distraught mother.)
Mr. Hamlin: Just uh…caution more?
Israel: Yes.
Mr. Hamlin: Did she make any of those statements to you after you had
insisted taking the baby about the devil or anything of the devil was in
this, or anything like that?
Israel: That was afterwards, yes.
(Oh, yes, so AFTER you stole our baby off of my breast while he was
feeding, with threat of force I said something about the devil?? so, this
was not a concern to you BEFORE you stole him?? So why did you steal
Mr. Hamlin: I mean did she make any of those statements afterwards?
Israel: He was the one who referred to us as the devil and the beast.(She
chuckles) Stacey sat down after the baby had been removed and tried to
hold a conversation with Ms. Holm and then she left the room and I sat
down to hold a conversation with her, to try to get to know more about the
situation, to calm her down also. I explained to her why we were here,
what we were doing, and that’s when, yes, we were referred to us as the
devil and the beast.
(She first said, “He was the one who referred to us as the devil and the
beast” and then she said “I explained to her why we were here, what we
were doing, and that’s when, yes, we were referred to us as the devil and
the beast.”
So, which was it Israel? Danielle or Christian? And what does this have
to do with the removal of our baby? I think it is a pretty evil situation that
the devil is influencing to steal a newborn infant from his mother for
absolutely no reason other than false accusations and mistaken identity. Is
the devil not the father of lies?)
Mr. Hamlin: Have you had any subsequent contact with either one of them
since the night of the hospital?
Israel: No.
Mr. Hamlin: All right. As part of your investigation have you gathered any
records as far as the identity?
Israel: Yes. On the 14th of October, I was informed by —————
Calhoun County Personnel that Mr. Holm had came down and he
fingerprinted at the ———-County Sheriff’s Office.
Mr. Hamlin: Was there any concerns about him being fingerprinted?
Israel: They brought to my attention that the machine that we had…
Christian: Objection, your honor. Hearsay.
Mr. Hamlin: Judge, if this is part of her business records, I would like to
ask for a business record exception if this is something she has obtained or
learned through her business records investigation.
Christian: She is speaking about what somebody else has told her about
the fingerprints and not somebody who is first person viewed.
Judge Walker: You can rephrase.
Mr. Hamlin: As party to the investigation do you gather information from
other departments?
Israel: I do. Yeah.
Mr. Hamlin: And as party to your business records, do you keep those
Israel: We do.
Mr. Hamlin: The information was about the request for fingerprints. Did
you get information from another department?
Israel: I did.
Mr. Hamlin: And is that part of your record?
Israel: That is.
Mr. Hamlin: And are you the custodian of that record?
Israel: I am.
Mr. Hamlin: I’d ask that that information be let in through the exception of
business record.
Christian: What is he trying to admit? Is he trying to admit a testimony…
Mr. Hamlin: No, a testimony about the fingerprints.
Judge Walker: To show.
Mr. Hamlin: Okay, what information…
Judge Walker: To show.
Mr. Hamlin: Okay to show as to there was concerns as to their..uh…his
fingerprints may have been tampered with.
(This is new news all of a sudden!! Lets see what else they can come up
Judge Walker: Okay, and that is harmful to the child, how? How is it
relevant to what we are here for today?
Mr. Hamlin: I think it again plays to the mindset as to the conspiracy
theory that everybody is against him and steps he might have taken to
avoid his identity to be identified.
Mr. Kirby: Do you want me to respond?
Judge: Yes, if you feel that you are able to…
Kirby: I don’t know that the fingerprints have anything to do with mindset,
your honor. If the investigator did or didn’t conduct the fingerprints, then
she didn’t conduct the fingerprints and shouldn’t be allowed to testify
anything about the fingerprints. She didn’t do the fingerprinting…um…how
you raise an issue if you didn’t do the fingerprinting…
Judge Walker: I think under her business records she can testify to what
was there and as far as concerns, did it raise concerns for her? It may or
may not have but it needs to be very, very limited in its scope.
Mr. Hamlin: Oh, yes, ma’am. In the records he went and fingerprinted, he
got his weapons back,
(No, he never got his pepper spray or knife back, because the judge said,
to leave them in “evidence”) These items are still at the sheriff’s office.)
Israel: Yup.
Mr. Hamlin: All right. Was there anything with the fingerprints that were
concerning to you?
Israel: They seemed to have been distorted.
Mr. Hamlin: All right. Did it make it difficult to be identified?
Israel: It is.
Christian: Objection, your honor. She is not the one that did the
fingerprints. She didn’t hold my hand as we were doing the fingerprints.
Judge Walker: Okay. We’ve already passed that point, but Mr. Hamlin if
you will go ahead.
Mr. Hamlin: What concerns did you have about the distortions of the
fingerprints? What is that?
Israel: That he was attempting to not allow us to identify him properly,
that there was some hidden reason behind that.
(He willingly went to get fingerprints right when he was asked to, and
gave them his hand and they did what they did with them. How was he
attempting to not allow them to identify him!? He did exactly what he was
asked to do. What are THEIR hidden reasons for WANTING his
Mr.Hamlin : But you were able to identify him eventually?
Israel: Yes.
****(So that whole line of questioning was for nothing, except to slander
Christian more. You were able to identify him eventually and he was who
he had always said he was, there was no hidden reason behind the
finger printer’s inability to take good fingerprints since that man didn’t
know him at all, and you owe an apology, not a line of questions that
serve no real purpose other than justifying your wrong actions.)
(Exactly!! This has nothing to do with taking our baby!! There is no
tampering of fingerprints and there is no hidden reasons of anything on
our end.)
Mr. Hamlin: You were able to exclude him from the person in Arizona?
Israel: Yes. That’s correct.
Mr. Hamlin: Were you able to run a criminal background check on him?
Israel: I was.
Mr. Hamlin: And what, if anything, did you find that was concerning in
that background?
Israel: Several charges that at one point in time that he had been arrested

Mr. Hamlin: What type of charges?
Israel: Battery, aggravated assault, shoplifting, and DV.
Mr. Hamlin: Okay. And as the totality of the circumstances there, did that
leave you to have concerns for this child?
Israel: Yes.
Mr. Hamlin: Why that in itself, along with everything else raise concerns
for you?
Israel: Because of the violence. A violent charge is usually aggravated
assault. A violent charge is also considered battery. Obviously more
***(He had been arrested for protecting others in fights, where everyone
involved got arrested, and all charges on Christian got dismissed and
thrown out. This was close to 15 years ago.)
Mr. Hamlin: Gotcha. Had you asked him if he had any background?
Israel: No, I did not.
Attorney: That’s all I got.
Christian: Okay….
Judge Walker: Do you need to take a moment with Mr. Kirby before you
get started?


Beginning of Tape 7

Christian: Okay, could you tell us how long ago that the cases that you
have found against me were and the dispositions of them were?
Israel: I would have to refer to my notes.
Christian: You have to refer? Can you please elaborate?
Israel: I would have to go back and look at the criminal history and refer
to the notes.
Christian: So you don’t know?
Israel: Not off the top of my head.
Christian: So they could have been dismissed?
Israel: Yes, I believe most of them were dismissed.
Christian: Okay.
Judge Walker: I’m sorry?
Israel: Most of them were dismissed. Most of his cases.
****(So she brought it up just to slam you when you haven’t been
convicted of any of the charges she is trying to saddle you with as a
reason not to have your child. She knew it also at the time. She is a
prejudiced witness).
(**All charges HAVE been dismissed and he has NO record**)
Christian: What evidence do you have on record that we have a history of
illegal drugs of any kind?
Israel: I don’t have anything. on record
Christian: What evidence do you have on record that we are alcoholics?
Israel: I don’t have anything.
Christian: What evidence do you have on record that we have been
negligent of our baby’s health?
Israel: When there is a child that is brought into the world that has no
safety, has not a home that the child can go home to, that is neglect.
Christian: Your honor, I am asking the specific evidence as though we
don’t have those already.
Judge Walker: Okay, if you can rephrase because it wasn’t very clear as to
what you are looking for on that.
Christian: Okay, what evidence did you have on record that we did not
already have those things on the night that you came in and stole our child
off of my wife’s chest?
Mr. Hamlin: I would object to the way that he is phrasing the question as
to stealing the child.
Christian: Okay, what evidence do you have on the night that you came
that we do not have these things that you are asking of whenever you took
our child?
Israel: First of all, I didn’t take the child.
****(Who did? The tooth fairy?)
Christian: Did you not take our child off of my wife’s chest?
Israel: No. I did not remove the child. I never touched the child.
Christian: You were not the one who removed the child? Can you tell us
who took our child off of my wife’s chest?
Israel: That was Stacey Jackson.
Christian: That was Stacey Jackson?
Israel: Yeah.
Christian: So you were not involved in it whatsoever?
Israel: I took her by the hand.
****(Discrepancy. When she testified earlier she stated she took her by
her left arm. Which is it?)
***(As Chuck Haworth grabbed my right arm to let go of the baby, she
reached down and grabbed the baby off of my chest. She did not hold me
down, because she grabbed the baby with both hands.)
Christian: Did you say to my wife, Danielle, you need to let go of your
Israel: Yes.
Christian: And did you not say to my wife while she was holding our
child, “Now I have something against you. You are pulling your
are putting your baby in danger?” ….as you ripped him off and made him
Israel: No.
Christian: You did not?
Israel: I did not.
Christian: Alright. What evidence do you have on record that we are unfit
Israel: I never said you were unfit parents.
Israel: When there is a child that is brought into the world that has no
safety, has not a home that the child can go home to, that is neglect.
Christian: What evidence do you have on record that we have any criminal
conviction record in any jurisdiction?
Israel: I have only date of arrest, the date you were arrested.That’s all I had
in the criminal history
****(and you have admitted on the stand that you knew these were all
dismissed, so the answer to the question is none)
Christian: Okay, what evidence do you have on record that there are any
active valid warrants out for either of us in any jurisdiction?
Israel: I do not have record of that.
Christian: What evidence do you have on record that anyone has ever
swore or affirmed an affidavit of probable cause that we have been
negligent to our baby boy and that has taken responsibility for the
truthfulness of the contents of that affidavit by stating that they are signing
it under the penalty of perjury?
Judge Walker: Ma’am, you need to answer the question. You can…
Israel: I’m not sure what you are asking me. I am sorry.
Christian: Let’s do half and half.
Israel: Okay.
Christian: What evidence do you have on record that anyone has ever
swore or affirmed an affidavit of probable cause that we have been
negligent to our baby boy?
Mr. Hamlin: Your honor, I would ask to clarify on the record, is that prior
to the night of the pickup or just period?
Christian: Period.
Israel: No.
Christian: And now the second part…and that has taken responsibility for
the truthfulness of the contents of that affidavit by stating that they are
signing it under the penalty of perjury?
Israel: No
Christian: No. all right. What evidence do you have on record that we are
going to harm our baby boy?
Israel: I don’t have anything on record saying that you are going to harm
your baby boy.
Christian: Okay. What evidence do you have on record that we are going
to be negligent to our baby boy?
Israel: I don’t.
Christian: What evidence do you have on record that we forfeited our
parental rights protected by the Constitution and the 5th Amendment and
14th Amendment thereunto?
Israel: What…what…can you repeat that again?
Judge Walker: Slow down. You’re getting a little fast in your talking.
****(If you listen to the tape, the speed of Christian’s speech doesn’t
change. The ability of individuals to understand what the Constitution
actually says does hamper their ability to answer, it would appear.)
Christian: Okay. I’m sorry. What evidence do you have on record that we
forfeited our parental rights protected by the Constitution and the 5th
Amendment and 14th Amendment?
Israel: Okay. All right. I don’t have any records on that, that you are
forfeiting? I don’t have any records showing that you forfeited your child
if that’s what you are saying.
****(No, he didn’t say that but you won’t have the records he was asking
about either.)
Christian: What evidence do you have on record that this is no longer the
United States of America?
Israel: I don’t have anything on record.
Christian: Okay. What evidence do you have on record that this court is no
longer held to the confines of the United States Supreme Court?
Mr. Hamlin: I object to the relevance of that one too. This court is held to
the United States….what was that last word?
Christian: Court is no longer held to the confines of the United States
Supreme Court.
Mr. Hamlin: Judge, I object to the relevance of that and all of this basic
line of questioning as far as the constitutional rights and all. I just…we…on
the direct examination there was never none of those rights ever gotten
into. I questioned her about their conversation and about what took place
at the time of the pickup…
Christian: Objection, your honor.
Mr. Hamlin: And….I think he is getting a little out of bounds of the
relevance of this court and the proceedings for what we are here. I mean
this is an adjudication. It has nothing to do with termination of parental
rights. I’m not even sure what he is trying to ask with the question right
before or this one, but she answered before I could object to the
constitutionality of…
Judge Walker: I think where you are going with your objection, and
correct me if I am wrong, is that he is outside of the bounds of direct on
cross-examination. Is that correct?
Mr. Hamlin: Yes.
Judge Walker: You understand Mr. Holm is not a learned party. Is that a
correct statement, sir? You do not have a law license?
Christian: That is correct.
Judge Walker: And what I believe, and please correct me if I am wrong,
you are trying to take advantage to elicit testimony from a witness while
she is here rather than having to bring her back in your case in—–(chief?)
Christian: I’m doing the best I can to bring truth to light.
Judge Walker: Okay. So with that, I’m going to give him a little bit of
lattitude so we don’t have to have Ms. Israel come back for day 3 or stay
here till later tonight. Let’s let him, let mom and dad go where they feel
they need to go with this, and I believe if you will tell me where there, or
what’s the basis of this…you are challenging what?
Christian: I’m showing that…
Danielle: broken no laws…
Christian: I’m showing that we’ve broken no laws…
Danielle: Our baby was never in harm
Christian: And that there is a law put in place for the common man and
woman to grow, and that both sides of law must be upheld of the badge
and the non-badge.
Judge Walker: Okay, with that I’m going to give you a little bit of latitude.
Let’s try to keep it as focused as you can. I understand you are not licensed
to practice law but we will help you to get through this. Okay, Mr. Kirby is
there to assist you.
Christian: Thank you.
Judge Walker: Go ahead.
Christian: Okay. What law do you have on record that we violated in not
yet naming our baby boy?
Israel: I don’t. I don’t have any record of that.
Christian: Okay. What law do you have on record that we violated in not
yet acquiring him a social security number?
Israel: I have nothing to do with that. I don’t understand what you are
asking me. Why are you asking me these questions?
Judge Walker: Are you aware of a law that violate….
Israel: Yeah, there is no law.
Christian: Okay. You are not aware of any law that mandates that you have
social security number?
Israel: No, there is no law.
Christian: Are you aware of any law that mandates that you have to have a
Israel: No.
Christian: Okay. You are not. Just a few more and that’s it. Uh…what law
do you have on record that allows you to order us to not exercise our first
amendment right to speak out about this travesty of parental rights and
deprivation of due process?
Mr. Hamlin: Judge, I would like him to clarify that. If he is talking about
the gag or…the order that you imposed as far as confidentiality in the
statute that says juvenile cases, the confidential…is that what you are
talking about?
Christian: Yeah, we recognize that she wouldn’t have anything to do with
that so I’ll….alright…
Mr. Hamlin: Okay. I ask that be stricken from the record.
Christian: Okay, did you go to Stephanie Riggs house looking for
information about us to identify us?
Israel: I don’t know who Stephanie Rigg is.
Christian: Stephanie Rigg….have you gone to anybody? Any civil party?
Any outside party?
(Stefanie Riggs, who testified FOR us at the shelter care hearing and then
flipped and testified against us at the next hearing, told a pastor who
donated money to us to stay away from us because an investigative
detective went to her house questioning her and saying we were
dangerous. Obviously someone is lying….it’s obviously Stefanie.)
Israel: No.
Christian: How did you find out who we are? How did you eventually find
out who we are?
Israel: Through fingerprints.
Christian: Through fingerprints?
Israel: Yes.
Christian: Now, the fingerprints that you all couldn’t identify in the first
****(Good one, Christian!)
Israel: They were sent to the bureau of investigation through Georgia.
Christian: Okay, do you remember the night when the incident occurred at
the hospital where I handed you three forms of identification?
Israel: Yes, you didn’t hand them to me….
Christian: Could you tell me what those were?
Israel: You must have handed them to officer Collins.
Christian: Do you remember when we were in the room with the two
officers and you grabbed my federal ID and you asked one of them, “Have
you seen this? Did you see this? You do remember that?
Israel: I don’t recall it being a federal ID though. It was a driver’s license…
Christian: Okay, but you do remember me handing you something?
Israel: I remember seeing it. It wasn’t handed to me but I remember seeing
it, yes. I asked him did he run you by this identification card and he said
he did.
Christian: Okay, and can you tell me what you were doing at that time
when you were in that room as you asked him that?
Israel: I was searching your bag.
Christian: Right, okay. And that was the green bag that you spoke of
Israel: Yes.
Christian: Could you tell me what was the contents of that bag?
Israel: I don’t recall.
****(convenient memory…seems to work really well about some things
now doesn’t it, but others, well…..)
Christian: Was it like baby attire? Were there clothes? Was there diapers?
Israel: I don’t recall seeing any of that.
***(But yet, this bag was ONLY full of baby items, and she had to DIG
through to get to the pepper spray on the bottom. And she even admitted
earlier that she had “tunnel vision” looking for weapons.)
Israel: I recall the small green bag I was looking into and the baby
ointment in that.
Christian: So you don’t remember seeing anything in the bag?
Israel: I remember the cream and the pepper spray.
Christian: How heavy was the bag?
Israel: Not very. Not very much heavy. I remember I carried it with one
****(She has such an excellent memory for details, wouldn’t you say? If
only she could see)
Christian: Okay. Now you stated that there was pepper spray in the bag.
Could you tell me what kind of pepper spray was this?
Israel: I would have to look at the pictures.
****(Before she testified that it was the good stuff, high grade. Memory
problem again?)
Christian: Okay, now you also understood where we came from, right?
Did they tell you where we were before we came into the hospital?
Israel: Uh…Cheaha.
Christian: They said we were camping?
Israel: No, I wasn’t informed that you were camping. I was informed that
you were living on Cheaha mountain.
Christian: Okay, is that a normal process to have pepper spray when you
are in the wilderness with animals?
Israel: Well, I wasn’t….had you still been in the wilderness..
Christian: Just answer the question, please, ma’am.
Mr. Hamlin: I object you are argumentative there.
Judge Walker: Just say yes or no. To the best of her knowledge, she may
not have any knowledge of that.
Christian: Is it a normal process to be in the wilderness and for your own
safety to have pepper spray against animals?
Israel: I mean you could.
Christian: You could. Okay. All right. Is it also an understanding that this
was an emergency event and that there was no time to see what was in a
bag at a time when we came to the hospital? Is that also something that
could be as well?
Israel: The information I received is that she had been in labor for three
(In labor for 3 weeks!?? Good Lord…that would be horrific! And who is in
labor for 3 weeks?? Is that even in the Guiness book of world records? I
was in labor for 2 days…and then we went to the hospital at the right
****(This woman has no clue about childbirth. Do they not teach officers
basic first-on-scene emergency medical care?)
Christian: What I am trying to say, let me say it again…okay. It was an
emergency. We were in an emergency room, correct?
Israel: Yes
Christian: So we called an emergency to get there, correct?
Israel: I guess you did. I got there, the baby was already born.
Christian: All right. So what I am trying to say is in a state of emergency is
it possible to have things like pepper spray in a bag whenever you are just
trying to hurry things together to go to the hospital?
Israel: Sure.
Christian: Okay. All right. So it was completely innocent to have that with
us, right?
Israel: It could be, yeah.
(And she made a big deal out of it why???)
Christian: Okay. When I handed you the three forms of identification and I
made a statement to you, and I said the devil is prevalent here, do you
recall that statement?
Israel: I don’t recall you handing me, first of all, three forms of
identification. I recall seeing your identification that you handed officer
Christian: Okay, when we were standing up outside of the room at the
nurses station…
Israel: When I gave you my business card…
Christian: You gave me your business card and you gave me the receipt for
the pepper spray, if you will, do you recall that I said that the process that
was happening here is evil?
Israel: Yes.
Christian: Okay. Is that a fair statement by understanding the false claims
that were put against us? Is that a fair statement for me to have?
Israel: In your own mind, yes.
****(Lady, the situation couldn’t get any more evil and that is ALL he
said. He could have said so much more, reacted with great lack of selfcontrol–
which he did not, and you can’t even allow him the right to feel
anything about this injustice? Not even at the time it was happening? I
feel so sorry for you.)
Christian: If we had false accusations made against us, that would not be a
fair statement for us to say that there was some evil taking place?
Israel: Okay….what you are saying that you said, and what you said are
two different things.
Christian: I need a yes or no answer.
Mr. Hamlin: I object. He is saying what is happening to them….uh…the
way he is explaining it he is asking her to come to a conclusion I don’t
think she can come to.
****(Of course not, because that would be admitting culpability for her
part in this. She has already stated the reason she took the child was
proven false, so now she cannot admit that he should have any reaction to
the wrong that happened to them or else somebody is to blame. The state
Judge Walker: She has said in your mind, yes. She has answered the
question. It may not be the way you want her to answer the question but
that has been her answer. If you want to rephrase your question then you
are more than welcome to do so.
Christian: In anyone’s mind that this could happen to, is it a fair accusation
that whenever false claims are put on someone for them to make a
statement that there is some evil happening?
Mr. Hamlin: I’m gonna object because he said in anyone’s mind. I mean
that does call for some speculation on that part of the witness.
Judge Walker: sustained. It does.
Christian: Okay. All right. Do you have children?
Israel: I do.
Christian: Are you married?
Israel: I am.
Christian: Do you love your husband?
Israel: I do.
Christian: You do, okay. Does your husband protect you?
Israel: Yes, he does.
Christian: Does your husband protect your children?
Israel: Uh huh.
Christian: If you were with your children, holding your child, would you
not feel the need to protect your child from someone coming in and taking
them away falsely?
Israel: So you are asking my opinion personal?
Christian: Yes.
Israel: Okay. If I was presented with a court order stating that I had to turn
over my child to the state because of a certain situation, I would comply.
Christian: Did we ever receive a court order that night?
Israel: I don’t know. I didn’t stay for that part.
Christian: Did we ever receive a warrant for that night?
Israel: Was there…well should there have been a warrant?
Christian: I am asking you.
Israel: Not to my knowledge.
Christian: Did we ever receive any type of probable cause?
Israel: Probable cause for?
Christian: To justify why our child was being taken.
Mr. Hamlin: I object. I don’t know that you can receive probable cause. I
don’t know if he is looking for some kind of paperwork, as far as can he
define what it is he is talking about did he receive probable cause? I mean
I know what a warrant is and I know what an order is, but I don’t know
what a probable cause is.
Christian: Did you see the court order yourself?
Israel: No.
(Because there was not one!!)
Christian: Did you assist in taking our child?
Israel: I was informed by Stacey Jackson that a court order had been
(But there was not one there, and it was supposedly signed 50 minutes
after they removed him!! and the pick up order itself was obtained by a
petition supposedly that was not even filed until 2 days AFTER the pick up
order was signed and the petition was full of lies and not signed under the
penalties of perjury. AND the pick up order stated “THERE IS NO
Christian: So you did not see it yourself?
Israel: No.
Christian: So you took our child without seeing a court order?
Israel: I didn’t take your child.
YES SHE DID….and then she handed him to STACY JACKSON.
Christian: You were involved with taking our child without seeing a court
Mr. Hamlin: Your honor it has already been answered on that one.
Judge Walker: It has been repeatedly answered.
Christian: No further questions, your honor.
Mr. Hamlin: Does the department have summary removal powers to your
knowledge where they don’t even need a court order to remove children?
Israel: No. Under ————–circumstances, I am sure that they would
have to have an court order.
(Oh, but she took him and there was no court order!!!)
Attorney: Okay, do you have the power to put…a child in protective.
Israel: No. No, I don’t.
Attorney: As law enforcement?
Israel: As law enforcement if a child is being harmed, we have the
capacity to remove that child from harm’s way. Yes.
Mr. Hamlin: That is what I am talking about. Okay.
Israel: Yes. I thought you was talking about the department, I’m sorry.
Hamlin: Well, I did ask that question to begin with. Does the police
routinely rely on DHR as far as information and the truthfulness of that
information in dealing with a pickup of children? As far as are you
required to see a court order to assist in picking up children?
Israel: No.
(In other words, social workers can lie, and make up things to law
enforcement and law enforcement has to believe them without seeing
any actual proof, evidence, facts, documentation??)
Mr. Hamlin: Is it a normal practice for you to follow up and if you want
one to get a copy of the court order?
Israel: Yes.
Mr. Hamlin: Let’s go back to the knife. You said you obtained two cans of
pepper spray?
(In other words, let’s go back to slandering Christian since we have
nothing else.)
Israel: yes.
Mr. Hamlin: Was the knife hidden in any bag?
Israel: No, it was on the little table beside the bed.
Mr. Hamlin: Okay. It was actually poured out of the bag on the table
beside the bed. What about the other can of pepper spray?
Israel: It was there too.
Mr. Hamlin: Okay. Now I think we could overlook if there was a hidden
can in the bag, but those had been gotten out and sitting out.
Israel: Yeah.
(They were sitting out before they got there, because Christian usually
kept a small bottle of pepper spray in his pocket every day and the knife
on his belt. In the hospital when he took his belt off to sleep the night
before, he took everything out of his pockets and took his knife and belt
off. Everything from his pockets was on that table, not just a knife and
pepper spray. We did not think anything of it. The knife was also sitting
next to fruits Christian had gotten for me down the street.)
Hamlin: Okay. So there wasn’t any overlooking that was there?
Israel: In plain view.
Hamlin: As far as you know they hadn’t been reported to the hospital or
anything like that?
(Why would we think to even report any of our property to the hospital?
We had no idea these would not be allowed. No one asked us and if
someone had asked us we would have told them we carried pepper spray
on us and the knife we had. We did not even think anything of it.)
Israel: That’s correct.
Hamlin: And they were confiscated.
Israel: Yes.
Hamlin: And I think he was going into…trying to figure out has there been
any criminal laws been broken. To your knowledge as far as this pickup
goes has there been any criminal law been broken by them?
Israel: No.
Attorney: But under our way of government today, the judge can issue a
court order and the child can be removed from the parents.
Israel: That’s true.
Hamlin: Is there anything illegal about that to your knowledge?
Israel: To my knowledge, no.
****(This needs to be broadcast far and wide. This is a powerful court
statement of truth-albeit evil truth, for which all accept nonchalantly.)
Hamlin: So as long as you have a valid court order, you are going to abide
by that order?
Israel: That’s right.
Hamlin: And is that what you felt like you were doing that night?
Israel: Right.
Hamlin: Is there anything that you’ve learned up to today that says there
was not a valid court order?
Israel: There is not I would say.
(LIES. a pick up order was signed ILLEGALLY 50 minutes AFTER
STEALING OUR BABY. We have PROOF of this.)
Hamlin: Okay. Did he ever state or make any statements about when you
said you was confiscating the pepper spray, that they were afraid, that they
needed that for wild animals or anything where they were staying?
Israel: He did. When I asked Ms. Holm about it, Ms. Holm said it was for
their use, that they lived off the land and the offerings, and that they used
it to cut vegetables and fruit with, and obviously to scare off invaders.
(We clearly said the knife was to cut fruits and vegetables which was even
pointed out by the watermelon and oranges we cut with the knife that was
next to my bed, and the pepper spray was for anything that could be
harmful to us. Why are we still stuck on this!?)
Hamlin: The knife and the pepper spray? Did they say why it was out at
the hospital?
(We weren’t asked.)
Israel: No.
Attorney: Did you question them while they were there?
Israel: No. My concern was to remove it and put it into safe.
(Exactly…so she did not ask us questions about it. She did not ask why
they were out on the table, next to fruit…she only cared about taking
them…and she admits this. And then we spend the entire testimony
answering questions about these items as though they were a problem, but
clearly she was not too concerned about them, because we were not even
questioned about them being out when they were there.)
Hamlin: That’s all.
Christian: Just wanted to question, did you see any type of harm being
done while you arrived at the hospital to our child by either me or my
Israel: No.
Christian: Was our child in any form of duress when you entered the
Israel: No.
Christian: So as far as you know we were a perfectly loving family and
everything was going just fine when you walked in from what you
saw…when you walked into the room….there was no emergency?
Hamlin: Judge, I would object to that because she already had knowledge
of a pickup order. She had received a phone call that a situation existed, so
I don’t think she could then turn around and say this is a perfectly fine
family when she already has knowledge that a court order was being
obtained to remove the child.
Christian: I will rephrase. Did you see any type of emergency in the room
when you walked into the room? Did you see any type of emergency
Israel: Explain emergency.
Christian: Any type of emergency…something causing the baby harm?
Israel: I already answered that, no.
Christian: Okay.
(But, yet she said the only reason law enforcement can TAKE A CHILD is
if there is an EMERGENCY AND RISK OF HARM being done to the
child….this is why she is lying saying she did not take him, because she
KNOWS he was taken for NO REASON, and NO emergency and she does
not want to be held liable. The proof is here….
The judges have this proof. The district attorney has this proof. The
guardian ad litem has this proof, but they still PLAY THE GAME….
And we are called crazy and delusional for thinking this is a
****(If the state’s interests are higher need than the parents, then
attorneys are required to follow the state’s best interests above the


Consolidated Tapes #8, #9, #10,# #11, and #12

Mr. Hamlin: State your name for the record please.
Christian: Christian Holm
Mr. Hamlin: What do you go by?
Christian: Christian
Attorney: Where do you live at?
Christian: I would like to invoke my right to plead the 5th.
Mr. Kirby: Come here. Can I have a side bar?
Judge: We are back on the record. If you will restate your question.
Hamlin: Yes. Where do you live at?
Christian: Okay, I would like to invoke my answer…to not answer. I have
no comment.
Hamlin: Judge, may I request that this witness be considered a hostile
witness for the purposes of this testimony?
Judge: I don’t know that he’s shown that he is hostile. He just says that he
doesn’t …
Attorney: Well what I’m talking about to, to the state that he is not going to
be a cooperative witness to the state.
Judge: Go a little further and see.
Attorney: We’d like that you’d direct this witness to answer our questions
toward to where he lives.
Judge: Mr. Holm, what is your basis for not wanting to reveal to the state
your address?
Christian: We have not been given any proper reasonings of why we are
here today to justify me answering…to tell anybody where we live. It’s not
of anybody’s business and I think this…
Attorney: I don’t think that’s a proper response him not wanting to inform
the department of the address as far as what they’ve been given. What
they’ve been given at least a copy of one, if not two, orders as to why we
are here today.
Judge: Mr. Holm, you need to give um…it’s a standard question of what
your residence or your address is and I see no reason as to why you would
not be able to answer that question.
Christian: So is there no way that I can invoke my amendment rights of
anything to not answer?
Mr. Kirby: Can we side bar with the judge?
Judge: On the record or off?
Mr. Kirby: Off record.
Christian: Everybody?
Mr. Kirby: No.
****(But, but, but… isn’t Christian the pro se attorney for the case? How
come he can’t be there? Or Danielle? Guess they weren’t expecting you to
take the 5th.)
Mr. Hamlin: Why would you prefer not to give your address?
Christian: Because you all have not presented any probable cause of why
we are here today as far as a need to have to give that to you.
Mr. Hamlin: What would I need to have to present to you to be able to get
that, to get that information out of you?When you say probable cause,
what would I have to state to you to get that or show you to get that
Christian: The law is put in place to benefit both sides of the law. I have
not broken any laws here.
Judge Melody Walker: Before we go any further, Mr. Hamlin, based on the
few answers that Mr. Holm has given, and I certainly understand his point
in it, given the state’s request to treat him as a hostile witness…now that
doesn’t mean that you are acting out or anything…it just means that you
are not as forthcoming and it will allow to some latitude the state to treat
Mr. Holm as a hostile witness.
Mr. Hamlin: Thank you, your honor.
Christian: Could you please emphasize on what that means?
Judge Walker: Go ahead, Mr. Kirby.
Mr. Kirby: It means that they can ask you leading questions, okay? Instead
of just who, what, when, and where, they can lead up to events and ask
you questions, okay?
Christian: Okay.
Judge Walker: It doesn’t mean that you are acting out or being
disrespectful, cause most people think hostile they think well I’m doing
something wrong.
Christian: Are you protecting my rights?
Judge Walker: Mr. Kirby is, yes.
Mr. Hamlin: What do you live in?
(We already have testified to a camper. And we had already shown proof
of residency at the shelter hearing 2 months previous to this. These
comments in parenthesis and italics are by Danielle)
Christian: I have no comment.
Mr. Hamlin: Do you live in the state of Alabama still?
(They already know we do. We had been given gas vouchers from DHR
and we have to tell them how many miles we travel so we tell them, what
town we are in and about where, without giving them an address that they
can come harass as at.)
Christian: I have no comment.
Mr. Hamlin: How did you get up to Cheaha mountain?
(Already testified to this at shelter hearing. We walked.)
Christian: I have no comment.
Mr. Hamlin: Is every answer you are going to give no comment?
Christian: I have not broken the law, so, yes.
Mr. Hamlin: So if I ask you if you were present at the hospital the night
your son was taken…
Christian: That would be speculation for any reasons because I have not
broken any law.
Mr. Hamlin: No, I said were you present at the hospital the night your son
was taken?
Christian: What I am trying to say is I haven’t broken any laws so it
doesn’t really matter.
Mr. Hamlin: Have you ever broken any laws?
Christian: No comment.
Kirby: I’m gonna advise him not to answer that question.
Mr. Hamlin: Are you married?
Christian: No comment.
Mr. Hamlin: So Danielle Holm is not your wife?
Christian: I don’t have any comment.
Mr. Hamlin: Do you have any children?
Christian: No comment.
Mr. Hamlin: Do you know what you are saying affects the outcome of this
Christian: I know that I have not broken any laws.
Mr. Hamlin: Do you not wish to visit your child?
(Obviously he does.)
Christian: I have no comment.
Mr. Hamlin: Do you not have any desire to know how your child is doing?
(Obviously he does. Visits were taken away from US for 5 weeks, and at
this point we were still unable to see him. This was a devastating process
for us and he was sickly twisting the knife with these questions knowing
THEY took visits away, not us, after kidnapping him. And my milk dried
Christian: I invoke my right to not comment as I have broken no laws.
Mr. Hamlin: Where did you live at before you moved to Alabama?
(We never moved to Alabama. We were traveling through. We were
traveling the country.)
Christian: I have no comment.
Attorney: Did you leave your vehicle in Montgomery and walk to Cheaha
(We have answered this over and over again.)
Christian: I have no comment.
Attorney: Were you and your wife camping on Cheaha mountain when she
went into labor?
(Yes, once again.)
Christian: I have no comment.
Attorney: Do you know if the hospital called anyone with concerns about
you and your wife?
(The hospital was one of the few that called with “concerns”, also the
state park superintendent.)
Christian: I don’t have any comment.
Attorney: Do you know why DHR went to the hospital and removed your
(The REAL reason? Because we are in a human trafficking ring and they
thought we were an easy target.)
Christian: I invoke my right to not answer.
Attorney: Did you ever visit with your child at DHR?
Christian: No comment.
Attorney: Were you present at a prior hearing concerning the custody of
your child? (Yes, obviously.)
Christian: No comment.
Attorney: Did you attend an ISP after that hearing laying out certain things
that would be required of you and your wife?
(Yes, under duress.)
Christian: I don’t have any comment.
Attorney: Have you followed any of the steps in the ISP that would help
ensure reunification between your child and you and your wife?
(At first, yes we did, until we realized they were not going to give him back
Christian: I have broken no laws.
Attorney: Did you start a psychological examination at the request of the
Department of Human Resources?
(Yes, we did until we realized it went against every right and our religious
beliefs. Psych exams are sorcery to us.)
****Good point. Sorcery is against religious beliefs.
Christian: I have broken no laws.
Attorney: And were you at one time visiting with your child and
voluntarily stop visiting with your child?
(Absolutely not, and the recording of our visits being taken away by Leslie
Smith is now out in the world and documented by us, and witnessed by a
police officer, Ross McGlaughn AND Scott Winslet.)
Christian: I have broken no laws.
Attorney: And have you since become uncooperative with DHR?
(We stopped answering to them, because they are not playing fair.)
Christian: I have broken no laws.
Attorney: Will you turn over your address?
(Should anyone turn over their address to criminals?)
Christian: I have broken no laws to do such.
Attorney: Will you do anything that is requesting of you by DHR or
ordered to you by this court?
(No, because they are criminal kidnappers that had no right to break their
own laws against us.)
Christian: I have broken no laws. The kidnappers are asking me for
questions. I demand my child back today.
Attorney: So, the kidnappers being whom?
Christian:The kidnappers being anyone who is holding our child.
Attorney: So anybody in this situation would be considered the
Christian: I have no comment.
Attorney: For someone who has no comment you sure have been putting
out a lot of publications lately now haven’t you?
Christian: I have no comment.
Attorney: Did you send out a letter? Would it bother you if I come up
there? Would it bother you if I show you this piece of paper?
Christian: Sure.
Attorney: May I approach you?
Danielle: Sure.
Judge: The state too?
Attorney: Yes. Do you mind taking a look at this piece of paper? This
papers? In looking at that, is that something you are the author of?
(This is in reference to a notice of recourse letter we mailed out to all
involved stating if they did not return our child immediately there would
be legal recourse by us.)
Christian: I have no comment.
Attorney; So you are saying you are not the author of it?
Christian: I am saying I have no comment.
Attorney: So you are not denying you are the author of it?
Christian: I’m saying I have no comment.
Attorney: Would you take a second and mind reading that last page, the
signatures on the back page? Do you have any idea who signed that?
Christian: I don’t have any comment.
Attorney: Would you agree that it says Christian Holm and Danielle
Christian: I can agree that I have broken no laws and I have no comment.
Attorney: But you won’t agree to being the author of this even though you
signed it?
Christian: I don’t have any comment.
Attorney: You did sign it, didn’t you?
Christian: I have no reason to comment. I have no comment. I am not
Attorney: Did your wife sign this?
Christian: I have no comment.
Attorney: I would ask that this be admitted as state’s…
Danielle: Objection
Judge: What’s your objection, ma’am?
Danielle: It’s not properly authenticated.
Mr. Hamlin: We got a witness that won’t authenticate it. He won’t
comment on it. There is no way right now for me to authenticate it. He has
not denied it so I think it comes in under that. He has not said he didn’t do
it. He has not said that it was not his signature. He just says no comment.
So I don’t think not denying it is the same as admitting to it in this
Judge Walker: I’m going to admit it.
Mr. Hamlin: Thank you, your honor.
Mr. Hamlin: Can I approach again, your honor? Mind if I show you
another? Do you mind looking at that? I’m marking this as state’s three.
Uh…are you the author of this?
(It’s letter number 2. In order for it to be valid in the supreme courts for
lawsuits, in this state you need to mail out at least 2. We mailed out 3, with
a period of 10 days in between all, to give them time to respond-which
they never did)
Christian: I have no comment.
Attorney: Is that your signatures on the front page?
Christian: I have no comment.
Attorney: Did you see the signatures on the front page?
Christian: I don’t have any comment.
Attorney: So are you denying that you are the author of that?
Christian: I have not broken any laws and I have no comment.
Attorney: You are not denying you are the author of that?
Christian: I have no comment.
Attorney: Judge, again, I would like to offer this as state’s three.
Danielle: Objection
Judge: I’m going to allow it to be admitted and subject to cross
examination. By admission it certainly does not mean that Mr. and Mrs.
Holm may or may not be the author of that.
Attorney: Do you deny being the author of any of those documents?
Christian: I haven’t broke any laws and I deny answering you.
Attorney: Okay, but you don’t deny being the author of those documents?
Christian: I don’t have any comment.
Attorney: Do you expect the court just to turn your child over to you
Christian: I demand my child back.
Attorney: So you do demand your child back today?
Christian: I think that our child should be returned today.
Attorney: Why is that?
Christian: Because you all….We have not broken any laws.
Attorney: That’s all. That’s the only thing you’ve got to say?
Christian: That’s it.
Attorney: Okay. Have you ever had any mental health treatment?
Christian: I have no comment.
Attorney: Have you ever been diagnosed with mental illness?
Christian: I have no comment.
Attorney: Do you receive a Social Security check?
Christian: I don’t have any comment.
Attorney: Did you previously testify that you received a check?
Christian: I don’t have any comment.
Attorney: Did you previously testify you had a mental illness?
Christian: I have no comment.
Attorney: Fact is you used to be, and I think you testified to being treated
by Savannah Counseling didn’t you?
Christian: I haven’t broken any laws. I don’t have any comment.
Attorney: And that counseling had diagnosed you and you testified at an
earlier hearing that I think you had commented on ADHD, attention deficit
disorder, and delusional disorder. ****(That’s a lie!)
(He never testified to anything other than depression and ADD.)
Christian: I have no comment.
Attorney: And that diagnosis came from Savannah Counseling, didn’t it?
Christian: I have no comment.
Attorney: And since then you have been diagnosed with schizophrenia,
haven’t you? ****(Another lie!)
(Right, only depression and ADD. and Since the last records THEY have
seen, we have even newer records that show mild depression (its more of
a chronic fatigue than a mental state, and ADD…his focus is worse than
a squirrel.)
Christian: I haven’t broken any laws and I have no comment.
Attorney: And I think that you testified that your social security check was
based on your mental illness.
Christian: I have no comment.
Attorney: If your testimony only showed the ADHD, you failed to disclose
the delusional disorder and schizophrenia, didn’t you?
****(This was so not true and I knew it immediately. I got so mad typing
it, I took a break and then forgot to notate I believed it was a lie. This is
tantamount to saying, “You failed to disclose you beat your wife whenever
you get drunk, didn’t you? None of it is true.)
Christian: I have no comment.
Attorney: Judge?
Judge: Yes, sir?
Attorney: In lieu of the testimony, can I have about five minutes with cocounsel?
Judge: You need a break for five minutes?
Attorney: Yes, I do.
Judge: Okay

Tape 11
Attorney: Would you mind looking at this piece of paper? It’s marked
state’s exhibit 4. This is a release to Savannah Counseling for counseling
records, isn’t it?
Christian: I have no comment.
Attorney: You don’t deny it is a release?
Christian: I have no comment.
Attorney: We would like to admit this as State’s 4 now. I want to get you to
look at this right here. That front page is consent, excuse me, authenticity
certificate from Savannah Counseling. Can you flip through and…..? Do
you recognize any of that as your records?
(Christian did see these records after the fact and they are not all there,
therefore they are not valid. He believes the lawyers got these illegally
from Christian’s family. Christian went there for at least 5 or 6 years,
and only about 2 years worth of records are there. He saw multiple
doctors there.
Kirby. And after, this court date, all permissions have been revoked for
any and all HIPPA releases of information, which is why this current
judge is trying to FORCE us to sign HIPPA, because they ended up
getting these false records in the record anyway.)
Christian: I don’t have any comment.
Attorney: Do you deny treatment through Savannah Counseling?
Christian: I have broken no laws and I deny answering you because I don’t
have any comment.
Attorney: Have you ever had…so you are not denying that you have been
diagnosed with a mental illness through Savannah Counseling, have you?
Christian: I have no comment.
Attorney: You don’t deny seeing a therapist at Savannah Counseling, do
Christian: Christian: I have no comment.
Attorney: You don’t deny with being diagnosed with ADHD or ADD?
Attention deficit disorder do you?
(It’s ADD.)
Christian: I haven’t broken any laws. I don’t have any comment.
Attorney: You don’t deny being diagnosed with a delusional disorder,
do you?
(He has only been truly diagnosed with ADD and depression in the past.
Anything else, if anything he would not even know about. That is all he
has been even TREATED for. The medications he WAS on…wellbutrin
and adderall were for his 2 diagnoses of depression and ADD. That is
NOT a concoction that you give to a patient with delusions and
schizophrenia. That would be very dangerous.)
Christian: I haven’t broken any laws. I don’t have any comment.
Attorney: You don’t deny being diagnosed with schizophrenia, do
****(He also doesn’t deny having to sit and listen to a child trafficker
torture him either and in front of an American judge in an American secret
courtroom while lies are told about him and his child remains in the hands
of kidnappers. I will never regard lawyers the same way again. I was so
foolish to believe in our system before this, but with my own ears I hear
their lies and collusion and I will never think the same.)
(He has denied this many other times, to DHR and in motions, etc…)
Christian: I haven’t broken any laws and I don’t have any comment.
Mr. Hamlin: You don’t object to those records being entered into evidence
then, do you?
Christian: I have no comment.
Mr. Kirby: Judge, I’m going to object to the admission of these records.
While they do have a certificate of authenticity, there has been no
predicate laid as to any of these medical examiners or the part of these
records, uh…if they created these records, when they created these records,
and what they were doing…
Mr. Hamlin: ….to the records that’s not a problem.
Mr. Kirby: I don’t think Mr. Hamlin can testify as to the records…
Mr. Hamlin: I don’t think he is going to deny them, what’s contained in
these records. He had a chance to look at them and comment on them. He
didn’t deny that these are the records. This is an authenticity certification
of these records from the mental health, so…
Mr. Kirby: Not notarized. I didn’t see it was notarized. It’s signed. It’s not
Christian: I object to the validity of that note.
Judge Melody Walker: What do the statutes say on this?
Mr. Kirby: I don’t think you just willy-nilly give him records.
Mr. Hamlin: Not willy-nilly. He is not denying that these are his records.
He is not denying that these were his medical records.
Mr. Kirby: Maybe if Mr. Hamlin had somebody from Savannah
Counseling here to testify as to what those records contained it would be a
Mr. Hamlin: I don’t have any way to subpoena. They are out of state
medical personnel. They do not have to honor our subpoenas. If they were
ever denied that would be one thing but he has already admitted on the
record in a past hearing that he was diagnosed and received a check as a
mental disorder.
(He never testified that he was diagnosed with DELUSIONAL DISORDER
AND SCHIZOPHRENIA. He specifically said, DEPRESSION and
ADD….he NEVER testified that he received disability for delusional
disorder and schizophrenia. They are creating a fantastical picture of him
that is completely false. )
****(They need this diagnosis due to the fact that their case has fallen
apart and they have nothing else. It appears they will stop at nothing in
“the interests of the state”. That means they must force one or both of you
to break, thereby justifying their intervention on behalf of the child’s
protection. They are capable of doing much worse if what they have
already done is any indication. Your continued stability remains a threat.
Following their present course of action, they will continue to twist every
word and action they observe from you. I am so sorry. This is my country,
but when and how was it taken over by ruthless and evil men and
Christian: Under duress, your honor.
Mr. Hamlin: We have gotten the records with this certificate of
authenticity. I tried to verify to certify the record by asking him did he see
the record? Did he deny these are his medical records?
Christian: We were under duress.
Mr. Hamlin: He has no comment. There was no comment. He never
denied the authenticity…uh….I lost my train of thought now…that these
were his records. I can go on through and we can uh…I can ask you page
by page of Christian Holms, and he is going to say no comment.
Judge Walker: Okay, the authenticity certification says on the bottom of it,
I certify and affirm on the 2nd day of December , and Mr. Kirby’s concern
is that it may be certified and affirmed but not affirmed in front of a
notary. What does the statute say on that?
Mr. Kirby: It says it can come by affidavit or sworn testimony.
Attorney: That’s not an affidavit or sworn testimony.
Christian: It says it has to be certified by a stamp….
Attorney: Witness… not testify from the stand, that’s true…
Mr. Kirby: The original or due credit of record of activity that would be
admissible on rule 8036 if accompanied by an affidavit or sworn
testimony————qualified persons certified that the record is made at or
near the time of occurrence of the matter set forth by and for information
transmitted by a person with knowledge of those matters was kept on the
regular course of business and was made by the regular conducted activity
as a regular practice.
Judge Walker: Your records don’t have the right certification. At this point
I cannot admit them. We will hold them, though, with the regular exhibits
so I don’t lose my count if that is okay?
Mr. Hamlin: I’m going to backtrack a little bit Mr. Holm and make sure I
get all my questions in. Did you and your wife walk from Montgomery to
Cheaha Mountain?
Christian: I respect you but I have not broken any laws and I have no
Mr. Hamlin: And did you all leave a working vehicle in a storage unit in
Christian: We haven’t broken any laws. I don’t have any comment.
Mr. Hamlin: And did you ultimately arrive on Cheaha Mountain to camp
out and have your child?
Christian: I don’t have any comment.
Mr. Hamlin: At some point in time was she transported by rescue
ambulance service or rescue squad to RMC Hospital?
Christian: I don’t have any comment.
Attorney: At the time you were camping upon Cheaha Mountain the only
items you had were two changes of clothing for each other, a couple of
onesies and a blanket for the baby?
(False. Yes, we did only have a couple of changes of clothes for US and
the rest in the car), BUT, we had an entire backpack full of clothes, good
enough for 2 weeks for a baby, diapers, wipes, onsies, booties, hats,
receiving blankets, and a wrap to carry him in against me. The rest of
what we had was in our car, parked in storage. It was ALSO testified by
Stefanie Riggs in the shelter hearing that SHE donated multiple items
BEFORE we gave birth, so how can she donate and also we have
nothing? Either way we were more than prepared before hand and even
more so afterwards. What do other people do in emergency situations?
What do people do if they have preemies? Also, it was testified by ME, on
the stand at the shelter hearing that I went to prenatal classes in Arizona
on our travels, called New Beginnings where for every class I went to, I
would receive points in order to get baby items, diapers, etc…our car was
****They had that testimony on record yet persisted in pushing the false
narrative in trying to prove neglect. Again, another example of the state
willing to lie perpetually in order to defend state’s best interest.
Christian: Show me the laws that I have broke and I’ll answer. I have no
Attorney: Prior to camping on Cheaha, you all had been camping pretty
much traveling the earth living out of your tent. Is that correct?
Christian: We demand the laws that we have broken. I have no comment.
Attorney: The only source of income I think you testified to was your
disability check.
(But yet, they said how we “got by” by “handouts” from others only….)
Christian: I don’t have any comment.
Attorney: Kinda making sure I catch all my questions. When you were at
the hospital, I think I asked you about, that the hospital became concerned
and called somebody about some information they had received off the
internet thinking you all were someone else…
Christian: I don’t have any comment.
Attorney: You had in fact been….
Mr. Schlenker Your honor, ——————–real quick, something just
dawned on me.

Tape 12
Judge: Okay, we are back on the record but we are technically in a recess
or sidebar. Mr. Kirby has correctly pointed out to us Mr. and Mrs. Holm
that you are actually indeed pro se litigants and he is just standby counsel,
and you do have a right to be involved in these discussions.
Mr. Schlenker: And your honor, I just want to be clear that we are treating
this as ———-asserting his 5th amendment right because otherwise it just
dawned on me that the department would have to seek the court to compel
him to answer every question because if he’s asserting his 5th amendment
right the court is welcome to make whatever inference it wants, but if not
this is a civil matter. He does not have a right to answer questions and we
will be forced to seek him to be ordered each and every time if he refuses
to do so.
Christian: You need to show us where we have broken the law to order us
to do anything.
Mr. Kirby: I don’t know of anything. I mean if he wants I can re ask all of
those questions and assert the 5th amendment right not to testify. I don’t
know of anything that could compel him to testify, especially answers
involving testimony that might hurt him in some way.
Judge: And I’m assuming you are talking about the part of that these two
letters that are here and also other things. I think certainly one has the right
to invoke their 5th amendment right if they feel like the answer they will
give will lead to issues with criminal prosecution.
Christian: We would like to invoke the 5th amendment right because we
have not broken any laws.
Judge: Okay, you can’t invoke that for your wife but I’m sure at the proper
time she will do that, okay? So, I guess basically what you are asking, Mr.
Schlenker, is that…
Mr. Schlenker: Each prior answer would be construed as, and he can
perhaps clear this up by saying that each answer before he was asserting
his 5th amendment right. I know it’s not the cleanest for the purposes of the
record but I think it does at least then put us in a position where afterwards
we are not forced to seek absolute compulsion with every answer, because
at that point and time. I mean, even if the court was willing to compel him
to, the court could go to the extreme with having to incarcerate him for not
answering questions but that is not what we are seeking. But again, I do
not want the state prejudice based on the fact that he refuses to answer a
question, and under the 5th amendment we certainly are not prejudice by it
because it is a civil matter. But if he is going to have no consequence for
his not answering a question, then again I think the state is being
prejudiced by his refusal to answer a question.
Judge: Well, the very first question you asked him, he asserted his 5th
amendment, though I’ve sort of run with that is what he is continuing to
assert. It’s concerning that he is asserting what I’d think would be his 5th by
saying no comment because he has said I’m taking the 5th, no comment, no
comment, no comment rather than saying I assert the 5th, I assert the 5th, I
assert the 5th. And Mr. Holm, please correct me if that is not what you
intended. So that’s the way I have been taking it.
Mr. Schlenker: And I just wanted to be sure we were clear about that on
the record, if that is the fact the way the court is receiving it and that is the
fact of Mr. Holms intent I am satisfied with that. Again, I just want to
make sure that the state’s interests are protected.
Judge Walker: And that again, that’s my recollection. As a matter of fact I
wrote down where do you live and wrote 5th beside it because I was
prepared to write down an address in my notes. And Mr. Holms do you
indeed want to talk to Mr. Kirby before you answer that?
Christian: I think it’s as simple as I haven’t broken any laws and my rights
are to not answer if you all can’t prove that we’ve broken any laws in the
first place.
Attorney: So from the onset of the questioning you just want to invoke
your 5th amendment?
Christian: Yes.
Mr. Schlenker: Judge, I apologize for this late coming to you but based
upon the way the answers were being given it started worrying me, and I
just wanted to be sure we were clear for that, so I apologize.
Judge Walker: That’s fine.
Mr. Hamlin: And I believe I was at the point…I think my last question was
something like you and your wife had been camping out along the way to
Cheaha Mountain. I think I had asked you if you left your car in
Montgomery and had camped, walked, traveled to Cheaha Mountain. Is
that correct?
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Attorney: And you went up to Cheaha Mountain to have your baby as
(They keep flipping the titles on us. One moment we are creationists and
the next we are naturalists. We never claimed either. )
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Attorney: And you also spoke of yourselves as minimalists.
(No, we did not. Again, flipping the titles on us again. Why can’t we just
walk in the name of Yeshua and continue on with love?)
****I would guess Jesus’ name in any language is not one he wants on the
court record. The last time Jesus was tried in court, it didn’t turn out well
for the prosecution.
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Attorney: Isn’t it true that as the time your baby was born you had nothing
but a couple of onesies and a blanket for your child?
(No, that’s not true, and it had already been testified on the stand of what
we did have in our travel bag as well as our car in Montgomery. Also, it
was testified by Stefanie Riggs as well that we had donations BEFORE
birth, and after. Therefore having an abundance of what was needed. )
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Attorney: Is it true that at the hospital there was a knife and two cans of
pepper spray either in your room or in your belongings?
(A 4-inch blade buck knife for cutting fruits and vegetables and 2 separate
bottles of pepper spray for protection while camping since we would
rather spray than kill if in danger. All not illegal, and all bought on
Amazon. And yes, the knife was on Christian’s belt and the pepper spray
bottles were in the bottom of a travel bag where all of the baby stuff was.
When the ambulance came, we were not thinking of these items, as we
were only thinking about the baby stuff in the bag, and grabbing it and
getting into the ambulance. The child crime’s detective searched through
this bag, having to get past the baby items to get to the bottom of the bag
where the pepper spray was located. It was testified there were no baby
items in the hospital, therefore another lie.)
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Mr. Hamlin: Isn’t it true that at the hospital that the behavior between you
and your wife surrounding the pickup caused the hospital to shut down,
the maternity wing of the hospital?
****(This is a lie and is refuted by testimony provided by the security
guard who was telling the truth when he said it was done just as a
After they took Christian out of the room and then stole the baby off of
Danielle, Stacy Jackson the social worker sat with Danielle and said to
her, “we just removed your child and your husband is in the other room,
and he is VERY calm, and that is concerning to me, because that is not
the proper reaction after having your child removed”. She then
proceeded to ask me if Christian heard voices, had hallucinations, etc…I
said absolutely not. She was already trying to paint a picture of crazy at
this point…as Christian was in the other room, calmly speaking to the
police and speaking to God within, asking him to keep him calm.
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Mr. Hamlin: Isn’t it true that statements made by you and your wife calling
people satan or lucifer or the devil was in this or they didn’t know who
they were taking when they were taking this child, revelations about what
God had sent you, that comments about your grandfather working for the
government and he had tampered with your ID–All that was made by you
and your wife to the workers and the police at the time? Correct?
(When Rachel Israel took the baby off of Danielle, Danielle looked into
her eyes and said, “all I see is the devil right now. This is absolutely evil”.
In the other room Christian told them “the devil is prevalent here right
now” . We also said our baby was a child of God, given to us BY God, and
that they had no right to take a child of God. Stacy Jackson asked
Danielle why she thought Christian’s ID would come back as “not on
file”….Danielle said, “I have no idea, but all I can think about is that
Christian’s grandfather may have had something to do with that, because
he received high level security clearance and he may have erased his ID
in the system or something because he has done similar things in the past.
(He took his fingerprints out of a police station before with a simple phone
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Attorney: You were present when Detective Israel testified weren’t you?
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Attorney: She testified that there was a knife and pepper spray in plain site
in the hospital room, right?
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Attorney: And that you are not disputing any of the testimony the prior
witnesses had commented about you, are you?
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Attorney: And after the child went into care we had a shelter care hearing.
You were present and testified, correct?
Christian Under duress.
Attorney: Explain duress.
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Attorney: So you want to claim duress but you want to invoke your 5th
Christian: I want to invoke my 5th amendment, yes.
Attorney: Then I ask if he is going to invoke his 5th amendment his duress
be stricken.
****(This is a great example right here to show the unsuspecting public
the truth of the matter that anything you say can and WILL be used
against you. This attorney is extremely hostile to the Holms, as if they
actually had broken laws, and as if they actually were enemies of the
state. People need to see this to realize that every citizen in America will
be viewed in this manner and no attempt will be made to prove the
innocence of anyone, just confirm guilt. Five or six decades ago all
school children were taught how the legal system operated in Russia.
However, this is exactly how it is done here. I wonder in what years the
change came? I imagine it was gradual.)
Judge Walker: I don’t think that’s applicable. I would think he just answers
I was under duress and say he was under duress at the hearing. It is what it
is and I can infer what I want to from the remainder of it.
****(Apparently, this procedure they are doing is giving the judge
permission to infer anything she wants from your invoking the 5th
amendment. This is another clue by what she is saying right here. They get
to win in their case against you if you do make statements because they
twist and lie regarding your answers and they act in sync, and they get to
win if you don’t make statements. Looks like it is all set up for them to win.
Why do they even bother with a trial? Oh yeah, I forgot. To get those
federal dollars, that’s why.)
(Yes, they did say that even if we do not answer, she can infer our answers
however she sees fit.)
Mr. Hamlin: Did your wife testify subsequently at the first hearing?
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment.
Attorney: And after that DHR had a meeting and there was steps laid out
for your wife and you to all have visitations with the child, correct?
(Yes, and we did every single one of their “steps”, until we started
realizing this is a rigged game that they were trying to trap us in. This
entire thing was planned since BEFORE giving birth, and it was a trap we
never should have fallen into to begin with. And then they took visits away
from us as punishment for 5 weeks anyway.)
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Mr. Hamlin: And at that first hearing I think it was made clear that
juvenile cases are confidential and that a particular order was put into
place, the gag orders, so that nothing could be said outside the court about
the proceedings.
****(Except of course everybody who seemed to have been sitting in these
hearings and felt the need to comment on the Holm’s facebook page
continuously showing their full knowledge of everything said in these
confidential proceedings. They reamed them further, taking off on
everything testified in confidence by the state. They all said similar things,
supposedly being different people, and had uncanny knowledge of the
secret testimony they were each commenting on. It was an amazing
mystery to behold and I believe those comments are still buried
somewhere in the early days of the facebook postings if someone wants to
search. Anyway, it took awhile for Christian and Danielle to decide that if
everyone else was going to state one side of the courtroom fiasco
(something they were getting used to by now from their experiences in
front of the judge) that they might just give their version of the truth of
what actually happened. Gag orders apparently don’t apply to the state,
only their victims.)
(ALSO, this “gag order” clearly states that it is to protect the IDENTITY
of the child. Which is why he has no name as of yet, for HIS
PROTECTION. We are trying to protect him with not yet naming him.)
****(I actually guessed as much, Danielle. I never asked you about why
you were not naming him, but it is obvious that you can’t refer to a baby
that is not named. Pretty smart on your part. Everything in court is a
Mr. Hamlin: And you started with the visitation from the ISP from the
DHR, correct?
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment.
Mr. Hamlin: Is it true that you actually met with the person doing the
psychological and you decided you wanted to get your own?
(It is true, that we actually went to the psychological that THEY scheduled
for us and realized that she is part of the rigged plan and right off the bat
she was trying to tell Danielle to separate from Christian in order to gain
custody back QUICKER, and to live separately from each other, as a
“suggestion”. She twisted words against Danielle and Danielle had to
keep correction her saying, “no, that is not what I said”. This was NOT
an unbiased, professional psychologist. This was a paid operative of
DHR. And paid she was. They pay each of their psychological “service
providers” $800 per person for these evaluations.)
Danielle: Objection. Ask and answer.
Mr. Hamlin: Okay. I didn’t know which ones I missed so…and you never
actually got a separate counselor to do the psychological?
Danielle: Ask and answer.
Judge Walker: Now I don’t recall that question about a separate counselor
being asked. I just recall about the psychological evaluation.
Mr. Hamlin: You actually stated that you were going to get your own
psychological counselor and finish up the psychological, but you never
did, did you?
(No, because we started realizing this is a game to them, and there is no
need for a psychological when we do not have psychological problems we
are dealing with. We had never done anything wrong to begin with, they
broke laws and violated their own policies to steal our child. We are being
treated like animals and we are not going to bow down and submit to
THEM. Psychology is sorcery, which is why I, Danielle, got out of it, after
getting a degree in it and working as a mental health worker with children
and adolescents for a little while. It completely takes God out of the
equation, and violates and offends our spiritual beliefs, and we have every
right to not have evaluations done on our own minds that have never been
questioned in the past. Yes, Christian was officially diagnosed with
depression and ADD, but has has been treated in the past and has found
alternative ways to treat, with diet and exercise, and being out in nature,
hiking, biking, etc… Danielle has never been diagnosed with anything.)
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Mr. Hamlin: That at some point you came in and informed DHR that you
all were no longer going to visit with your child?
****(I’m going to say this is a big NO!)
STOPPED VISITS and NOT HER. This is even in a motion saying that on
November 14th we called saying we did not want to see our baby
anymore, when the audio we have recorded and have also witnessed by a
police officer who was there, shows the visits were stopped as punishment
on November 16 BY the supervisor at DHR.)
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Attorney: You refused to give DHR your address?
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Judge Walker: Now, Mr. Hamlin, while you are phrasing these more as
statements I am assuming they are questions. You are just sort of shortcutting
the process.
Mr. Hamlin: Yes, Ma’am. I am trying to, yes. And, isn’t it true that you just
altogether quit cooperating with the department?
(Once we started realizing this was a trap and they were not going to give
him back no matter WHAT, then yes we stopped offering to give them
anything more they can use against us to keep our baby.)
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Mr. Hamlin: So it’s fair to say you haven’t accomplished any of the goals
that were in the ISP for your child to be returned to you.
These “goals” were fingerprints and a psychological evaluation. The
fingerprints were accomplished. We went to the psychological. We even
made an appointment for Christian for counseling to make them happy.
When we started realizing after visiting the psychologist that this was
clearly rigged and they had a clear agenda of dividing Christian and I
and conquering, we stopped giving into their ways. The first appointment
Christian had scheduled for counseling, they cancelled on him, and he did
not make any more appointments, because we started smelling the
funkiness of the situation and it felt wrong.
Christian: I haven’t broken any laws and I invoke my 5th amendment.
Mr. Hamlin: Isn’t it true that you have been protesting down on the corner
here in Heflin?
****(I guess the constitutional right to petition your government for
grievances is also null and void? Who would have thought?)
(We started off protesting quietly with “gagged” taped across our mouths.
We had signs showing NO confidential information at all. Danielle’s sign
said, “BABY NEEDS MOTHER NEEDS BABY.” Christian’s sign at first
Christian: I haven’t broke any laws and I invoke my 5th amendment.
Mr. Hamlin: Is it true that you have been putting posts on facebook about
this case?
(It’s the only way to save our baby.)
Christian: I haven’t broken any laws and I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Judge Walker: Okay, before we go much further, since you are talking
about what I perceive to be a possible violation of confidentiality of this
case which is commonly referred to as a gag order, and it is an order by
****(so statute trumps constitutional rights? I don’t think so. Maybe as
long as people get away with it, but what happens when everyone is made
to realize what is going on?)
Judge Walker:….is the department pursuing contempt at this point on that
(“This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which
shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made,
or which shall be made, under the authority of the United
States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges
in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the
Mr. Schlenker: Not at this time
Mr. Hamlin: Not at this time.
****(Apparently they are saving your incarceration for a better time.
They did issue you these audio tapes after you supposedly violated the
statute and were reprimanded in court, did they not? What did they
expect you might do with these audio tapes?)
(Right. If we had so CLEARLY broken their laws, and violated their
policies, then why were we not arrested 3 months ago? The Supervisor of
DHR would drive by us when we were protesting and slow down and glare
at us, laugh at us with her friends, and take pictures so blatantly and
obviously. Why were we not arrested back then?)
Judge Walker: Okay, and Mr. Holm I think I am probably being overly
cautious with this and I think Mr. Kirby may have already gone over
it…umm…if the department proceeds to pursue contempt at some point for
something that THEY perceive as a violation of that confidentiality of the
statute, you do have the right under contempt to a court appointed
attorney. Okay? Anything that you say could be used against you…
****(My, where have we heard that before?)
Judge Walker:…possibly from today. Obviously your comment, and it may
change, has been no comment. You are asserting your right to the 5th, but I
just wanted to go over that with you on the record to make sure that you
are aware that Mr. Kirby has sent a satisfactory explanation on that.
****(Just think what might have happened if you hadn’t decided to invoke
your 5th amendment right throughout this hearing? Now I think I
understand why the top leaders all do this. They know how the system
(Yes, we felt it was important to not speak at all, because no matter how
much truth we speak, it is used against us in court. Guilty until proven
innocent, but they don’t want you to be proven innocent so you never will
Christian: We accept your oath to uphold our first amendment right.
****(First amendment right. Good point.)
Judge Walker: Go ahead, Mr. Hamlin.
Mr. Hamlin: And you have contacted people such as Medical and gave stories of what is happening to you and your
(Actually, no. We never reached out to Medical A friend did.
A friend told our entire story to them. Medical kidnap reached out to US
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Mr. Hamlin: And you’ve contacted the local paper and gave stories what
happened to you.
(We had our baby stolen on October 11. We got discharged from the
hospital on October 12 and told the local newspaper who did a story on
us instantly that day. It got printed on October 13. The gag order was
issued on October 14th in court. The local newspaper went out BEFORE
the gag order which is WHY we were gagged. Anniston Star is the
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Mr. Hamlin: Do you have a suitable home for your child?
(We showed proof of a suitable home 2 months prior in the shelter care
hearing on October 14th. The Judge even said, since “shelter” seems to
not be an issue here…)
Christian: We haven’t broken any laws. I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Mr. Hamlin: DHR has explained how the procedure goes and I think the
court has explained and the attorneys you used to have has explained how
the procedure goes as far as the shelter care, the adjudication that we have
to prove dependency on your child, but to get your child back in the
meantime cooperation with DHR is a necessity.
Christian: I understand that the law was put in place for both sides of the
law, the badge holders and the non badge holders. I invoke my 5th
amendment right.
Mr. Hamlin: Do you understand for you to get your child back you are
going to have to cooperate?
(We were, until we realized it was all a rigged game. They suck parents in
who are vulnerable, poor, tired, upset. They drag them through everything
for them to not even get their children back. All for money.)
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Mr. Hamlin: You authored…may I approach, your honor? You authored
state’s exhibit…
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Mr. Hamlin: …to, okay. You were the author of state’s exhibit 3 also,
weren’t you?
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Mr. Hamlin: Were you questioned about state’s exhibit 3 earlier today?
Christian: I haven’t broken any laws and I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Mr. Hamlin: Did an officer come and question you and take DNA from
you concerning state’s exhibit 3 today?
(We sent them a Manufacturer’s Statement of Origin stating that the baby
is OUR baby that we created with our creator and that no one under the
natural law has the right to take him. Since our identity was in question,
we put a drop of blood on our thumbprint next to our signatures stating
we are the father and mother of our baby. We checked with laws, got
information from the federal post office and there is no law against a
dried drop of blood, (they call it DBS-dried blood specimen) as long as it
is properly in an envelope, which it was). Of course, they are trying to
make a big deal out of this. We ALSO, spoke with the FBI. The FBI was
given a copy and they said this does NOT warrant a terroristic threat at
all. Before the court hearing on December 5th, the same detective that
stole the baby off of me, was the same detective who brought us into a
room before the court hearing with a warrant to swab our mouths to check
our DNA to see if it belongs to the DBS on the paper we sent out. For
what? We don’t know….apparently to try and drum up something even
further and create another painted picture of crazy.)
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Mr. Hamlin: Did he explain why he was doing that?
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Mr. Hamlin: I gonna show you what I marked as state’s 6. Can you
identify who is in the picture?
Christian: I haven’t broken any laws, brother, and I invoke my 5th
amendment right.
Mr. Hamlin: Is this you in the picture holding a sign and wearing tape over
your mouth?
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Mr. Hamlin: This is right out here a couple blocks down in Heflin,
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Mr. Hamlin: I’d like to offer this in as state’s 6, your honor.
****(Apparently, statutes overrule first amendment rights to protest, even
silently with tape over your mouth. That pesky little constitution thing.
They got rid of that, didn’t they? Now to let the people know.)
(Yes, this tape over our mouths said, “gagged”.)
Judge Walker: Any objection?
Danielle: Objection. Proper predicate for the introducing of the
photographs is not…
Mr. Hamlin: But I asked if it was him and he said he invokes his 5th
amendment right.
Judge Walker: Okay. I don’t think you’ve laid the proper predicate, number
one. Number two, we talked about the gag order violation and what we
refer to as a gag order. It is not specific for your case. It is in every
case…and the ramifications he could suffer from that.
****(In every case, eh? This needs to be addressed. Here is a
stranglehold to justice for any citizen, reducing our nation to a despotic
one for sure.)
Judge Walker: Based on those ramifications and that he has asserted his 5th
amendment right, you can get it in through another witness but I’m not
letting you get it in through him. You need to leave it up to…..
****(Nothing like a little more state’s help for a seasoned attorney who
shouldn’t need it, right?)
(The judge is leading the state at this point, saying they can get it in
through someone else.)
Mr. Hamlin: Yes, ma’am.
Judge Walker: And I’m going to attach this on top of this so that we know
which ones were not admitted.
Christian: The gag order I believe was titles and organizations.
Judge Walker: Do you have a question for Mr. Kirby?
Christian: I have a question for you? The gag order implied titles and…
Judge Walker: Do you need to step out of the room to talk to Mr. Kirby?
(She did not want to answer the question about her own gag order that she
issued. The Gag order DOES state cannot identify child and about titles
and organizations.)
Christian: No ma’am. I’m okay.
Judge Walker: Are you sure?
Christian: Yes.
Judge Walker: We could take a break.
Christian: I’m okay.
Mr. Kirby: Do you have a question for me?
Christian: No, I don’t. As they were speaking about that earlier….no, I
Mr. Hamlin: Is it true DHR has offered to provide services to you?
(They stole our child, and then tried FORCING us to take psych
evaluations and go to counseling when we do not need to go. We have no
pride, in the past if we wanted or needed to go to counseling we could and
we would. No need now, and they are trying to force us. This is not
providing services. This is control, conversation, coercion and force.)
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Mr. Hamlin: Do you want your child back?
(Trying to paint a picture here that we are not going along with their
FORCED plans against us therefore we must not want our baby back???
Sickly, wave your child over your head and not give him back if you don’t
do what they say, when you have done nothing wrong in the first place??)
Christian: I haven’t broken any laws and I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Mr. Hamlin: Did DHR offer gas vouchers to you all?
(NO. they did not offer. We asked, because THEY are making us drive
here, there and everywhere to deal with THEIR conversion
tactics…therefore it is the least they can do at this point.)
Christian: I haven’t broken any laws and I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Mr. Hamlin: DHR has arranged for visitation and…department visitation,
and any doctor’s visits, isn’t that correct?
(Wow, really?? Gee. Thank you. They have arranged for visitation? Our
baby was KIDNAPPED for NO REASON…He should be WITH us, let
alone visitations. and doctor’s visits??? This is so that the community can
make more money off of OUR BABY. Rather than DOCTORS visits, how
about you not rip a breastfeeding baby off of his mother and allow HIS
nutrition to not get ripped away from him, and his NATURAL
immunizations via colostrum that was freely and readily given to him via
his MOTHER given by GOD. Every time he goes to a “well visit” that is
completely unnecessary, they weigh him and measure him. And then he
leaves and gets sick to then have to go back for a sick visit. He would be
fine and not sick with his mommy and the proper nutrition! And we are
supposed to agree with them and THANK THEM???)
Christian: I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Mr. Hamlin: And you have refused to cooperate with the department fully
at this point in time, haven’t you?
(How many more times are we going to answer this same question?)
Christian: I haven’t broken any laws. I invoke my 5th amendment right.
Mr. Hamlin: Your honor, I’m gonna pass him with subject to recall.
Judge Walker: It is now 4:40. I’m assuming Mrs. Holm is going to proceed
in asking questions. Do you know about how long that will take? Do you
want to go ahead and take a break and reconvene so that you will have
some time to gather yourself and get your questions together? We are
going to have to close and be out of the courthouse in about 20 minutes
anyway, so.
Christian: Does the courthouse not run 24/7, your honor?
Judge Walker: No, we don’t.
Christian: It doesn’t?
Danielle: I actually don’t have any questions.
Judge Walker: I am assuming guardian, are you gonna have questions?
Allison Miller (GAL) : Yes, your honor. I mean I don’t know if any of I
think that we’ll probably have the same testimony but I probably have a
Judge Walker: My question is I want to go as far as we can go today
knowing that we are still open downstairs, but we are closed up here at
this point. Can you do….can you wrap that up within the next 20 minutes?
Allison Miller (GAL): Well, actually judge, I’ll tell you what. I will not
have any questions but as long as I can recall him…
Judge Walker: If you feel you need to recall Mr. Holm later that certainly
is fine.
Allison Miller (GAL) : I don’t have any questions at this time.
Judge Walker: So with that, the state does not have a chance for redirect
and we will stand in recess now. Mr. Schlenker, you told me that you have
on a TPR that is set that you will be continuing. Is that correct?
****(What is a TPR?)
(So, TPR means “termination of parental rights”….we have no idea if they
are speaking about US, in code, or if we are speaking about another case
on the record of OUR case, which is completely unprofessional. This is
good to point out, either way, because either way what they are doing here
is not right. Are they speaking in code about TPR on us?? OR something
else? We do not know.)
Mr. Schlenker: Yes ma’am. I will file a motion on that ——- tomorrow
very early and I’ve actually talked with the mother’s attorney about that as
well. He is aware that that is likely to occur based on my witness…..
Judge: So, everyone is available Wednesday, December 14?

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