37 Tape 21
Judge: We are back on the record: There’s been an impromptu question.
The Holm’s —————- to see their child. The state was going to make
an argument as to what has been going on I assume.
Mr. Schlenker: Yes, ma’am.
Judge: And Mr. Holm interjected something about it’s been a month. So,
go ahead.
Mr. Schlenker: Your honor, on November 14, Mr. and Mrs. Holm came to
DHR and ordered that they no longer wanted to visit their child…
Danielle: interrupting ..That is a lie!
Mr. Schlenker: November 15, they then submitted document #1, which
caused the department concern for its safety. On November 16th they went
back to the department and said they still wanted to visit, however the
department informed them that we would attempt to make arrangements,
and that they no longer wanted to visit at the agency. We obviously were
no longer comfortable with them being at the agency and so we began to
explore other options. Last week we were able to secure someone who
could supervise visitation for 3 hours on Saturday. We contacted the
Holms on Friday after moving heaven and earth to make sure…
****(heaven and earth? how benevolent of you…)
Mr. Schlenker: …that we were able to secure all the proper funding for the
Holms. We talked to Mr. Holm. Mr. Holm asked us to…after kinda telling
him what we wanted…asked us to wait a minute. He conferred with Ms.
Holm and they said they were not willing to do that.
****(Here is proof provided for us by Mr. Schlenker and right here that
Mrs. Holm is not under the control and in the power of Mr. Holm as Mr.
Schlenker previously testified to in court. The state has made a big deal
attempting to show Mrs. Holm is under the spell of her husband and it is
without evidence and has never been true. They have a normal marriage
of healthy mutual submission despite what the state would attempt to
prove in court to the contrary. I offer this for those who may not pick up
on these details.)
Mr. Schlenker: They wanted the visits to be unsupervised. At this point in
time the department is not willing to do that and we are not willing
to…their offer was Mr. Kirby to supervise….we are not willing to have Mr.
Kirby to supervise. So at this point in time we have made those offers. We
attempted again, this last week to have that visit, so they have not visited
in a month. It is squarely on them.
Mr. Kirby: I’m going to let Ms. Holm address that.
Christian: We would like to…
Danielle: Nope. I’m just going to….
So, our last visit was November 11, which was over a month. Our last ISP
meeting was a day before that. Leslie threatened because we didn’t want to
comply with her demands of things that we don’t feel are necessary. She
threatened the counselor with the observing of our visits again against our
consent to counseling and a psychological exam, so under duress on
Monday, November 14th, Christian called DHR and spoke with Ms.
Brown. Christian told Ms. Brown he felt very uncomfortable and unsafe
going for a visit at DHR because of the threat Leslie told us about having a
counselor watching our visits behind closed doors, the counselor we have
never even spoken to. Christian gave Ms. Brown our phone number to
give to our case worker to call us back to set up a visit in another neutral
location. She never seemed to call back. Wednesday, November 16th, I
called DHR at 8:01 am and spoke with Leslie. Leslie said she was
assuming we were not coming in for visits anymore, that she would call
the foster parents to make sure they bring the baby and come in for
9:00am. We arrived for our visit at the set time of 9:00am. The foster
parents arrived at the same time as did the police department. Unable to
see our baby, Leslie escorted the foster parents out back and our baby left
out of the back door with the foster parents. Leslie then proceeded to tell
us in front of the P.D. that we are not going to have any more visits
because of the information you have sent out. We feel unsafe. Leslie called
on December 9th, stating we could have a visit on December 10th at Cheaha
Mental Health. Now this is a month later. We stated we do not feel
comfortable visiting at that location with that counselor and that we would
be happy to go to either DHR, which was declined by Leslie, or Heflin
Recreation Center or anywhere else public. We stated that Mr. Kirby could
supervise at any location at any time, and Leslie said she would have to
call us back about that. Mr. Kirby called Allison Miller and told her he was
comfortable supervising our visit at either DHR or another public location
like Heflin Rec Center. Allison Miller said she would call Leslie. She
called Leslie. Leslie told her she would call back on Monday. On Monday,
December 16, 2016, neither Mr. Kirby, Christian or Danielle heard back
from Leslie or Allison Miller about visitation.
Christian: And your honor, we have recordings of this to also prove it. We
have recordings of the ISP, we have recordings of us speaking to her
Judge: Uh…one of you gets to argue this. Applying principle of laws. Mr.
Schlenker, anything else?
Mr. Schlenker: No.
Judge: I don’t know that visitation can occur tonight due to the time. It is
extremely concerning to me that a visit was set up and refused. You need
to understand that your colloque with dates and times is well taken but it is
not a back door testimony, okay? So, it’s not evidence.
****(Of course not. That only happens when it is in the state’s favor.)
Danielle: We have recordings.
Christian: We have recordings.
Judge: Okay, well you will have to talk about that with Mr. Kirby as to
how that may or may not be properly introduced…
****(Don’t try to confuse the judge with facts that might prejudice the
state’s case. She works for the state, don’t forget. It’s not about justice.)
Judge: If indeed we don’t get finished tomorrow about say 1:00 o’clock, I
think it would probably be very proper for the department to set up a visit
with you and your child, but both of you are going to have to give a little
****(You mean give a little more than the child they’ve already given?
That little bit?)
Judge: This visit’s going to be supervised.
****(The purpose of supervision is so the state can obtain more
information to use AGAINST the parents for the purposes of their case.)
Danielle: Did you hear me say that we offered any public place…?
Judge: Well, listen. The visit’s going to be supervised.
Christian: Supervised by who?
Judge: Well, by whoever is deemed appropriate at this time by the agency.
Christian: Non medical personnel.
Judge: Well and I am perfectly fine with…I don’t know….you know
maybe…I don’t even know who her caseworker is now, Martin?
Danielle: Correct, your honor.
Judge: You know supervise the visit…if Mr. Kirby wants to go even and
assist or watch that visit, and I know that’s been done before by other
attorneys. I think, Mr. Kirby, you have even gone up to the department and
supervised a visit…
Christian: This is a conversation that we actually had on the phone but it
was rejected.
Mr. Kirby: That’s true.
Judge: Well…
Christian: It’s a redundant conversa…
Judge: (yelling) Stop arguing with me, Mr. Holm! Stop! I’m trying to
resolve your situation here, okay? It’s difficult. I know. I’m sorry. The
department can call on…you know if there is a situation they can have law
enforcement come up there. Even if you get a 30 minute visit it is better
than nothing!
Mr. Kirby: We will take whatever we can get out there.
Judge: Now I’m going to sorta leave it at this point up to the department
for you all to plan and if I need to get involved in it to make it happen
tomorrow…but I don’t want to waste a lot of time and I don’t mean it’s a
waste of time for you all to see your baby…we got to get testimony done
too so we need to weigh carefully how we need to do this, okay? I’d say
it’s really important for me that you would see your baby.
Danielle: (crying) And I also want to say on the record that all I care about
is nursing my child and I’m dried up. I can no longer pump.
Judge: Okay. Well that’s something that…
Christian: Also I want on the record that we demand our hostage child
back now.
Judge: Okay, Mr. Holm. I note that the record is recording that…
So, with that we’ll stand adjourned. ————Can you get that visit set up
for tomorrow afternoon?
Guardian: I will do my best.
Judge: Okay.

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